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Author Topic: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.  (Read 5766 times)

Bo_Dez

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2017, 10:13:56 AM »

Hi,

I have owned most Zeiss lenses for the Hasselblad and many were not that good. The ones that impressed me were the Sonnars 150/4 and 180/4 and the Planar 100/3.5. But, I have not owned the 40/CFI IF or any of the Superachromats.

Regarding the Phase One lenses, I have not seen enough raw files to build an opinion. Jim Kasson has run a lot of very good tests on the Fujinon lenses for the GFX and it seems that they belong to the best lenses ever made.

I don't think Zeiss can deliver better lenses than other vendors. It is more about price and tolerances. It seems that there is a tendency to more complex designs.

Once a decent image quality is reached, diffraction will be the limit. That is the reason for f/8 and be there. Most older lenses had near optimum performance at f/8, stopping down more improves depth of field but looses fine detail contrast. New lens designs may reach optimum performance at f/5.6 or even f/4. But, making use of that performance means shooting at f/5.6 or f/4.

The figure below is taken a bit out of context, but it shows quiet clearly that lens performance tends to converge at f/8. Diffraction is the limit and that limit is the same for all lens makers:


Best regards
Erik

Hardly relevant comparing older lenses with new ones. The Otus line is clear indication of what we could expect from modern Zeiss lenses on Medium Format.

Besides, you are missing the point. There is far more to a lens than sharpness and MTF data.

Almost all of the Contax glass and a lot of the Hasselblad glass, 120 f4, 150 f4, 110 f2 are some of the nicest rendering lenses in history, which in their time were high performance lenses which also exemplify Zeiss Character. There is not one Fuji/Blad or Phase One/Schneider lens to get excited over.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 10:32:48 AM by Bo_Dez »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2017, 04:17:00 PM »

IMHO, the look champions are mostly 35mm lenses these days...

The complexity of designing for technical excellence and a great look is such that only large volume manufacturers can affort to do it consistently (niche manufacturers can get lucky with some designs of course), meaning Nikon, Zeiss and Canon.

Canon has decided to go for their usual neutral, good but boring approach these past years which leaves Zeiss and Nikon.

Cheers,
Bernard

ben730

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2017, 05:20:18 PM »


Canon has decided to go for their usual neutral, good but boring approach these past years which leaves Zeiss and Nikon.

Cheers,
Bernard

If I were employee of the Nikon Marketing Department, I would pay you for your constant Canon bashing.  ;)
Normally, the problem is not the glass that has the "usual neutral, good but boring approach".....

BernardLanguillier

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2017, 05:31:46 PM »

If I were employee of the Nikon Marketing Department, I would pay you for your constant Canon bashing.  ;)
Normally, the problem is not the glass that has the "usual neutral, good but boring approach".....

Well, this is Canon bashing if you like lenses with character. It is Canon praise if you like a neutral look.

Canon used to release lenses with character such as the 85mm f1.2 or 50mm f1.2.

I find neutral boring.

Btw, this is precisely what this discussion is about.

Canon apparently feels they are mainstream and must stay in the middle of the road of everything they do. I know it serves well many professionnals around the world. I would probably take the same product planning decisions if i were Canon.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 07:09:18 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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ben730

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2017, 05:52:54 PM »

..... it serves well many professionnals around the world. I would probably take the same decisions if i were them.
Cheers,
Bernard

O.K.
I understand now.
Regards,
Ben

BernardLanguillier

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2017, 06:22:07 PM »

O.K.
I understand now.

What exactly do you understand Ben?

Or more importantly, what exactly is it you disagree with?

Do you think that recent Canon lenses offer a special look? If you don't then you agree with me.

If you do, could you please share some examples? I would be more than willing to acknowledege that I am wrong.

Cheers,
Bernard

ben730

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2017, 07:39:40 PM »

Bernard
I know, you love your gear. Go on, love it!  :)
But please stop bashing other gears. It's not necessary.
"Or could you please share some examples how boring the canon lenses are?"... ;)

I don't use Canon cameras and lenses but I know a lot of very good
photographers using them, some create a special look, some make ordinary photography.
But nobody's secret is the gear they use.........

I don't use Hasselblad H cameras and lenses but I know a lot of very good
photographers using them, some create a ......
... but this is all out of topic
 
I really wish ZEISS back in MF or Sigma first time in MF....
...or Rodenstock in MF DSLR! And I like the look of the Zeiss 40 mm IF, it's one of my favourite lenses... 8)
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 07:42:50 PM by ben730 »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2017, 08:21:58 PM »

Bernard
I know, you love your gear. Go on, love it!  :)

I select gear meeting my needs and preferences, I don't love it. I never hesitate a second to get rid of a piece of equipment if I think something better I can afford is available. Don't be surprised if you see me write about how great I think Sony is in a few months. ;)

But please stop bashing other gears. It's not necessary.

That is just your perception. Stressing the fact that Nikon and Canon have made different design choices in terms of the rendering of their lenses isn't bashing Canon. Many photographers must like the neutral rendering Canon went for otherwise they wouldn't be shooting with Canon cameras and lenses.

I would probably be pissed as a Nikon body owner if I preferred such a neutral look because that is definitely not what Nikon went for with their recent lens releases.

Do I find Canon boring? Yes I do. I used to lust for the Canon 1Ds and to regret not be able to afford one at the time. I am disappointed that Canon stopped pushing the bar forward. As a potential owner of their equipment. I am selfishly sad for myself not to have another alternative. And I think that Canon owners should continue to pressure their provider of equipment of choice to move their ass instead of defending their lukewarmess (not talking about you and I know many Canon customer did just that).

I have personnally never hesitated to stress how blind Nikon has been not to move faster in the mirrorless segment.

"Or could you please share some examples how boring the canon lenses are?"... ;)

I don't use Canon cameras and lenses but I know a lot of very good
photographers using them, some create a special look, some make ordinary photography.
But nobody's secret is the gear they use.........

Never said it was. And I do also know many excellent photographers shooting Canon, although many of them are now using Sony bodies with their canon lenses.

But I just don't think that all lenses are the same, that we live in a great equalitarian world where nothing differs. If anything, I am a Ken Wilber fan boy, in case you are familiar with his writings. And it is a fact that Nikon and Canon lenses are not performing the same way. And I believe it is perfectly legitimate to have preferences. Is it a deal breaker? Probably not, but I think that it does nonetheless matter enough to take the time to share my views about it (and believe me, I have a long list of things to do).

I don't use Hasselblad H cameras and lenses but I know a lot of very good
photographers using them, some create a ......
... but this is all out of topic
 
I really wish ZEISS back in MF or Sigma first time in MF....
...or Rodenstock in MF DSLR! And I like the look of the Zeiss 40 mm IF, it's one of my favourite lenses... 8)

Agreed. I used to own a copy of the 40mm IF and loved it too. I should have kept it btw.

I also shoot with an Arca equiped with the Rodenstock 23, 40 and 90mm and would indeed love to see them propose SLR lenses too, although I find this very unlikely.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 02:40:22 AM by BernardLanguillier »
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Bo_Dez

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2017, 06:13:41 AM »

Even if it were criticism it is hardly bashing.

Even if it were bashing, who cares? people like what they like. You like what you like so don't be put off by it.

Everything is open for discussion and it's not 1950's China where you aren't allowed to speak your mind.

I agree - Canon is boring. Boring as hell - that is my opinion, as an ex long time Canon user who moved on, and you are free to have your own. Some people want boring (they just call it something else). To me - BORING.  :P
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pschefz

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2017, 12:29:36 PM »



Almost all of the Contax glass and a lot of the Hasselblad glass, 120 f4, 150 f4, 110 f2 are some of the nicest rendering lenses in history, which in their time were high performance lenses which also exemplify Zeiss Character. There is not one Fuji/Blad or Phase One/Schneider lens to get excited over.

i couldn't disagree more....in more then 30 years of shooting i have never found or owned a zeiss lens i preferred over fuji or schneider....but i guess that is the point, personal preference.....
btw: i have never owned or shot with a lens from the otus line...i have obviously seen and heard a lot about it and am impressed with the sharpness and detail but other then that there is nothing there i really lust for and especially not for the price.....
my last zeiss lens was the fixed 35mm on the sony rx1rII and as much as i liked the small package, i much preferred the A7RII voigtlander 40 1.4 combo....and much of that had to do with the lens....
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eronald

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2017, 06:08:28 PM »


Do I find Canon boring? Yes I do. I used to lust for the Canon 1Ds and to regret not be able to afford one at the time. I am disappointed that Canon stopped pushing the bar forward. As a potential owner of their equipment. I am selfishly sad for myself not to have another alternative. And I think that Canon owners should continue to pressure their provider of equipment of choice to move their ass instead of defending their lukewarmess (not talking about you and I know many Canon customer did just that).
Cheers,
Bernard

Unfortunately Canon was never able to improve the still image rendering over the original 1Ds. The whole camera just worked and the images were exceptional. Not boring.

Edmund
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2017, 07:21:40 PM »

i much preferred the A7RII voigtlander 40 1.4 combo....and much of that had to do with the lens....

Interesting because, as you probably know, both Zeiss lenses such as the Otus and many others, are manufactured in Japan by Cosina, the company owning the Voigtlander brand. I believe that the same glass is used in both lines. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2017, 12:54:57 AM »

Hi,

Rendering is a bit up to taste. Ideally, there would be one rendition, the one that correctly reproduces subject on the image plane. But optical designers often leave some aberrations not fully corrected, so they may undercorrect spherical aberration and overcorrect secondary spherical aberration. Choosing the set of compromises may contribute to the "look" of the rendition of the lens. I don't know much about optic designs, but this was discussed by Brandon Dube (AKA AiryDiscus) on one of his blogs.

I own or have owned many of the Hasselblad lenses. Including the Sonnar 150/4 and the Planar 120/4. I am not in anyway impressed by the Planar 120/4, while I found the Sonnar 150/4 to be a very good lens, but the Sonnar 150 needed to go, it was to long for my needs. So, I got a Sonnar 180/4 instead. The Sonnar 180/4 is a very good lens. I had two Planar 120/4 lenses a CF and a CFi.

I also own or have owned the Distagon 40/4CF, Distagon 50/4CF, Distagon 60/3.5 and Planar 80/4. On the plus side, those lenses are fully usable at maximum aperture, but stopped down they don't come near my Canon zooms I use with the Sony A7rII in the few comparisons I made.

Best regards
Erik


i couldn't disagree more....in more then 30 years of shooting i have never found or owned a zeiss lens i preferred over fuji or schneider....but i guess that is the point, personal preference.....
btw: i have never owned or shot with a lens from the otus line...i have obviously seen and heard a lot about it and am impressed with the sharpness and detail but other then that there is nothing there i really lust for and especially not for the price.....
my last zeiss lens was the fixed 35mm on the sony rx1rII and as much as i liked the small package, i much preferred the A7RII voigtlander 40 1.4 combo....and much of that had to do with the lens....
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the_luminous_french

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2017, 05:31:28 AM »

Zeiss should start with a PC 35mm for full frame... a bigger market, and no modern 35mm is available in any mount... i still can't understand why...

and keep the same formula for GFX and Phase One... but, is it allowed to produce a lens for Phase one and GFX ?


Maybe, SIGMA will try it...


« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 04:29:48 PM by the_luminous_french »
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alifatemi

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2017, 11:59:14 AM »

With 150mp sensors about to arrive, we badly need higher quality lens options for Phase One.
The blue ring lenses simply aren't up to it, imho. I've demonstrated elsewhere their weaker resolution compared to older non LS designs.

When full frame started hitting this barrier, Zeiss stepped in with it's Otus range, which reset the parameters for FF resolution. So... surely it's time for the same for MF now? M-Otus ('Motus'?!) would be great. Yes I'd accept manual focus and no LS if necessary. We have Electronic Shutter, and that will improve in speed with every new sensor generation, so it's simply the ultimate resolution that needs improving.

I appreciate Zeiss have retreated from MF as the market is smaller than CaNikon, but surely the 300lb Gorilla that is Phase One can tempt then back for a high end production run at least for something like a 60 or 80mm standard?

Hi. Who do you know 150 mp coming to market? I am not uptodate ,is there any news about it that I dont know? Thanks
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2017, 11:10:55 AM »

Hi Ali,

Sony has published a rodmap for sensors and several 150 MP 54x40 mm sensors are on that roadmap for 2018.

They will also release 100 MP versions of the 44x33 mm sensors.

In all cases, Sony published device numbers. So I think they are quite close to sampling those chips.

Best regards
Erik

Hi. Who do you know 150 mp coming to market? I am not uptodate ,is there any news about it that I dont know? Thanks
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hubell

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2017, 02:08:26 PM »

Hi Ali,

Sony has published a rodmap for sensors and several 150 MP 54x40 mm sensors are on that roadmap for 2018.

They will also release 100 MP versions of the 44x33 mm sensors.

In all cases, Sony published device numbers. So I think they are quite close to sampling those chips.

Best regards
Erik

So different from the old days when Phase would have a monopoly on Dalsa sensors for a period of time and photographers didn't know what was coming until Phase announced it.
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Neil Williams

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2018, 07:35:51 AM »

Talking of lenses for 100+ mp backs. I have just bought a new HC50mm II and 100mm f2 and considering a second hand HC150n lens........will the HC150n lens work okay with my 100c back or do I have to get a new 150 to cover the back??

Neil

Bo_Dez

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2018, 08:19:29 AM »

Talking of lenses for 100+ mp backs. I have just bought a new HC50mm II and 100mm f2 and considering a second hand HC150n lens........will the HC150n lens work okay with my 100c back or do I have to get a new 150 to cover the back??

Neil

Will work well it's a brilliant lens.
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Neil Williams

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2018, 08:38:37 AM »

Will work well it's a brilliant lens.
Thanks very much

Neil
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