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Author Topic: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.  (Read 3389 times)

narikin

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With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« on: November 30, 2017, 02:53:58 AM »

With 150mp sensors about to arrive, we badly need higher quality lens options for Phase One.
The blue ring lenses simply aren't up to it, imho. I've demonstrated elsewhere their weaker resolution compared to older non LS designs.

When full frame started hitting this barrier, Zeiss stepped in with it's Otus range, which reset the parameters for FF resolution. So... surely it's time for the same for MF now? M-Otus ('Motus'?!) would be great. Yes I'd accept manual focus and no LS if necessary. We have Electronic Shutter, and that will improve in speed with every new sensor generation, so it's simply the ultimate resolution that needs improving.

I appreciate Zeiss have retreated from MF as the market is smaller than CaNikon, but surely the 300lb Gorilla that is Phase One can tempt then back for a high end production run at least for something like a 60 or 80mm standard?

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2017, 04:53:26 AM »

Considering the X1D lenses, I would personally expect more from Hasselblad in terms of delivering lenses able to tap into that resolution potential. Even the best H lenses will probably do a very fine job.

Cheers,
Bernard

Doug Peterson

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2017, 05:19:36 AM »

With 150mp sensors about to arrive, we badly need higher quality lens options for Phase One.
The blue ring lenses simply aren't up to it, imho. I've demonstrated elsewhere their weaker resolution compared to older non LS designs.

Please be more specific. I find it utterly incredulous you've found anything lacking with the 35LS, 40-80LS, 45LS, 150LS or 240LS. These are some of the best lenses ever made for any platform by any maker. The 55LS and 110LS are darn good. The 80LS is good. The 28LS is the lens that really needs a successor; in absolute terms it's a fine lens, but relative to any of the other Blue Ring lenses, and when used for high res full-frame 645 sensors like the IQ3 100mp it falls behind.
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Rdmax

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2017, 06:15:09 AM »

You're a Zeiss fanboy.
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narikin

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2017, 06:51:41 AM »

The 55LS and 110LS are darn good. The 80LS is good. The 28LS is the lens that really needs a successor; in absolute terms it's a fine lens, but relative to any of the other Blue Ring lenses, and when used for high res full-frame 645 sensors like the IQ3 100mp it falls behind.

You provided your own answer Doug. The 80mm is 'Good'?
Is that what we should expect from the standard lens of a $45,000+camera: 'Good'?!!

It's simply unacceptable at this price point. The 55 is likewise.
Compare these to Roddies best tech cam lenses and they mostly fall away.

They need to do better, imho.
What about an 80 or 60 mm MF Otus level lens, as we step up to 150mp?
Surely that's not asking too much

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narikin

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2017, 07:03:23 AM »

You're a Zeiss fanboy.

Hard to be a Zeiss fanboy in digital MF!
The only lenses they made for this were for Sinar, and that system died virtually at birth.

The best two mf lenses I own are Rodenstock, the Yellow banded 90mm f5.6, and the small walkabout 60mm f4.
The best phase lenses I own are the older generation non LS ones.


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Bo_Dez

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2017, 10:22:18 AM »

I've always lamented the loss of Zeiss in medium format and I agree, we need them back, even more so with the increase in accessibility and popularity of medium format with the GFX and X1D.

When I asked them a while back about it they replied - we can't say.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2017, 04:22:14 PM »

Hi,

I have owned most Zeiss lenses for the Hasselblad and many were not that good. The ones that impressed me were the Sonnars 150/4 and 180/4 and the Planar 100/3.5. But, I have not owned the 40/CFI IF or any of the Superachromats.

Regarding the Phase One lenses, I have not seen enough raw files to build an opinion. Jim Kasson has run a lot of very good tests on the Fujinon lenses for the GFX and it seems that they belong to the best lenses ever made.

I don't think Zeiss can deliver better lenses than other vendors. It is more about price and tolerances. It seems that there is a tendency to more complex designs.

Once a decent image quality is reached, diffraction will be the limit. That is the reason for f/8 and be there. Most older lenses had near optimum performance at f/8, stopping down more improves depth of field but looses fine detail contrast. New lens designs may reach optimum performance at f/5.6 or even f/4. But, making use of that performance means shooting at f/5.6 or f/4.

The figure below is taken a bit out of context, but it shows quiet clearly that lens performance tends to converge at f/8. Diffraction is the limit and that limit is the same for all lens makers:


Best regards
Erik




I've always lamented the loss of Zeiss in medium format and I agree, we need them back, even more so with the increase in accessibility and popularity of medium format with the GFX and X1D.

When I asked them a while back about it they replied - we can't say.
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Christopher

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2017, 05:03:27 PM »

Honestly I don’t get the fuss... all lenses I currently own 35,45,55,80,110,120,150,240 will easy handle 150MP from corner to corner.

The 35,45,110,150,240 were perfect from the start. I needed 2 copies of the 80 BR to find a great one. (7 of the none BR to match one with the BR)

I admit the 55 was more difficult. I tried 5 none BR copies and kept none. I tried 3 BR copies. Two were ok, the one I kept is as good as the 35 and 45.

So, while I never would mind heiß in the game it’s not needed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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tcdeveau

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2017, 10:53:17 AM »

I'm all for higher resolution lenses and higher resolution backs, and heck even more choices for lenses, but I don't get the fuss either.  X1D and GFX lenses are already fantastic, so I'm not sure what else Zeiss would bring to the table here.  The only thing I find lacking with the XCD lenses is lack of focal length selection at the moment.  Plus I'd rather have AF and LS on the X1D than an Otus-type lens anyway. 

For the upcoming 150mp backs, I don't see too many ppl complaining about the P1 BR lenses on the IQx 100mp and can't imagine they wouldn't be up for the 150mp task.  The Hasselblad 35mm needs an update but I don't anticipate the other lenses wouldn't be able to handle the resolution bump.  I think both Hasselblad and Phase could benefit from some redesigned wider-than-35mm lenses as the P1 28mm seems to be weak, and the Hassy 24 and 28mm are HCD lenses designed for a smaller-than-40x54mm sensor. 

I also don't see P1 and Hasselblad partnering up with Zeiss to make MF lenses anytime in the near future anyway as P1 is partnered with Schneider and Hassy Fuji (for the H lenses).  Zeiss already has a partnership with Sony, so an obvious entry for Zeiss into the MF world would be on a Sony system, however Sony doesn't seem to be in any hurry to release a MF system (if at all). 
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pschefz

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2017, 11:57:36 AM »

i was never really a huge fan of zeiss, always preferred schneider or fuji for MF glass...
now? the last zeiss lenses i have owned were for sony are (except for the 55 maybe) are mediocre....sony's own GM line is way better IMO...
hasselblad "broke up" with fuji (or the other way around, for obvious reasons)...i am not sure if the X1D lenses are all THAT great but at least they should have been planed with 100+mpix in mind....
fuji's GF line is excellent just like their 670, 680, 690,....always was....

Jim Kasson's findings about H lenses on GFX are a little worrying for the H system IMO....but hasselblad will figure it out for the next gen sensors/backs....most of the (old, fuji made) lenses will probably see updates when those backs come out.....
but the key there is just like with everything is being able to keep prices down with higher production quantities....how is it that fuji can come out with a completely new line of lenses.....they are all class leaders and cheaper....because they are selling great glass for smaller bodies.....
IMO sigma is the new zeiss....the produce amazing glass for great prices and canon and nikon shooters appreciate it....maybe that is where phase should look for glass...but sigma probably has no interest in such a small niche market, especially since hasselblad and fuji are most likely to seriously dent phase's business with GFX and X1D....IQ3 50 system is twice as much as X1D? i am not even comparing it to the GFX...but all 3 have the same sensor and both GFX and X1D have better AF? not sure how that will play out in the long run.....
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2017, 03:58:00 PM »

Hi,

A blue label dos not mean a great lens. A bit similar, Pentax did put a "Schneider" label on some of it's lenses.

I would suggest that most high end lenses are better than the photographers using them. Achieving best performance is difficult. It needs dead on focus at say f/4 with no vibrations. So, I think that must of the subjects we see are more photographer limited than lens limited.

Now, I am not saying that we should not use great lenses, or so. But stopping down a world class lens to f/11 makes it to perform as a decent lens at the same aperture.

I would suggest that many lenses we have today are truly great. But, to see their real benefits they need to be optimally used, that often means f/4 or f/5.6 and critical focus. That is what you are paying for, why throw it away?

Best regards
Erik


i was never really a huge fan of zeiss, always preferred schneider or fuji for MF glass...
now? the last zeiss lenses i have owned were for sony are (except for the 55 maybe) are mediocre....sony's own GM line is way better IMO...
hasselblad "broke up" with fuji (or the other way around, for obvious reasons)...i am not sure if the X1D lenses are all THAT great but at least they should have been planed with 100+mpix in mind....
fuji's GF line is excellent just like their 670, 680, 690,....always was....

Jim Kasson's findings about H lenses on GFX are a little worrying for the H system IMO....but hasselblad will figure it out for the next gen sensors/backs....most of the (old, fuji made) lenses will probably see updates when those backs come out.....
but the key there is just like with everything is being able to keep prices down with higher production quantities....how is it that fuji can come out with a completely new line of lenses.....they are all class leaders and cheaper....because they are selling great glass for smaller bodies.....
IMO sigma is the new zeiss....the produce amazing glass for great prices and canon and nikon shooters appreciate it....maybe that is where phase should look for glass...but sigma probably has no interest in such a small niche market, especially since hasselblad and fuji are most likely to seriously dent phase's business with GFX and X1D....IQ3 50 system is twice as much as X1D? i am not even comparing it to the GFX...but all 3 have the same sensor and both GFX and X1D have better AF? not sure how that will play out in the long run.....
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2017, 12:31:27 AM »

Some of the H lenses, interestingly the more complex wide glass (28mm and 50mm II) are very good and will have no issues dealing with 150mp.

The 35mm is weak and the 100mm f2.2 leaves a lot to be desired technically compared to an Otus or recent Nikon glass. The Nikon 70-200 f2.8 E FL is far superior at f2.8 for example.

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2017, 06:00:17 AM »

Hi Bernard,

I guess that the most of the action is in 44x33 mm right now...

Best regards
Erik

Some of the H lenses, interestingly the more complex wide glass (28mm and 50mm II) are very good and will have no issues dealing with 150mp.

The 35mm is weak and the 100mm f2.2 leaves a lot to be desired technically compared to an Otus or recent Nikon glass. The Nikon 70-200 f2.8 E FL is far superior at f2.8 for example.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Smoothjazz

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2017, 11:08:17 AM »

Christopher,

For my own education, how do you test your new lenses? I am afraid I have not been as discriminating as I should be; my Blue Ring 80mm and 35mm LS lenses are excellent, but I learned this over time, as I used them. I am thinking now I should have a rigorous testing protocol for a new lens purchased, based on how many lenses you have returned.

 Perhaps my 120mm Macro lens is not as sharp as it could be. I am thinking about obtaining a 110mm Blue Ring lens anyway. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

John
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DougDolde

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2017, 03:29:09 PM »

The original premise is pretty stupid if you ask me
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Rdmax

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2017, 05:27:00 PM »

Christopher,

For my own education, how do you test your new lenses? I am afraid I have not been as discriminating as I should be; my Blue Ring 80mm and 35mm LS lenses are excellent, but I learned this over time, as I used them. I am thinking now I should have a rigorous testing protocol for a new lens purchased, based on how many lenses you have returned.

 Perhaps my 120mm Macro lens is not as sharp as it could be. I am thinking about obtaining a 110mm Blue Ring lens anyway. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

John

For such high end lenses, I just have to wonder what you'd be shooting that makes one find them inadequate
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2017, 07:47:13 PM »

I guess that the most of the action is in 44x33 mm right now...

Indeed. But the true MF sized sensors remain IMHO the only ones that have real value compared to the best 35mm FF sensor cameras.

That is already true today (sensors very close in resolution, colors and DR, much wider range of similar quality lenses, much better AF,...) and will be even more true after Sony releases their a9r and Nikon their D5x/D950.

So I really hope that Hasselblad continues to invest in the true MF segment with newer lens designs, and AF suitable for the EVFs they are likely to equip these cameras with.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 07:59:43 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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jduncan

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2017, 08:53:13 AM »

Please be more specific. I find it utterly incredulous you've found anything lacking with the 35LS, 40-80LS, 45LS, 150LS or 240LS. These are some of the best lenses ever made for any platform by any maker. The 55LS and 110LS are darn good. The 80LS is good. The 28LS is the lens that really needs a successor; in absolute terms it's a fine lens, but relative to any of the other Blue Ring lenses, and when used for high res full-frame 645 sensors like the IQ3 100mp it falls behind.

Hi,
If I read you correctly the  Schneider-Kreuznach 110 f/2.8 id not as good the ones that you peek. Am I correct?
I believe part of the issue is that people are finally comparing the MF offerings to the rest of the market, and also today backs are stressing the lenses at the same level than the DSLR counterparts ( in fact, the Nikon D810 has a lower resolution by surface area than the  100mp backs).

Best regards,
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Doug Peterson

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Re: With 150mp backs arriving, we need Zeiss back in MF lenses.
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2017, 09:24:12 AM »

If I read you correctly the  Schneider-Kreuznach 110 f/2.8 id not as good the ones that you peek. Am I correct?

Everything is relative. The 110LS is a really good lens. But the 35, 40-80, 45, 150, and 240 are all superlative lenses. If you'd like any raw files samples to make your own evaluation we have gigs of them.

To make it more personal, a 110LS and 55LS are the two lenses in my bag when I shoot a wedding with a Phase One kit; the 150LS and 45LS are too hefty to carry the entire day and would likely require me to carry an 80 for when the 45 was too wide and the 150 was too long.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 09:28:45 AM by Doug Peterson »
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