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Author Topic: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL  (Read 8146 times)

Mark D Segal

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2017, 05:28:27 PM »

Not in depth. But that doesn't mean one cannot judge a camera based on technical specifications.

Sorry, but you cannot judge a camera based on technical specifications alone. Experienced photographers know this very well. Not all pixels are created equal and more is not necessarily better than less, nor less than more, nor smaller than bigger or bigger than smaller. A lot of technology goes into the performance of these devices that never gets picked-up in published specs and makes a monumental difference to performance quality. Be careful on this one.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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traderjay

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2017, 06:10:52 PM »

Sorry, but you cannot judge a camera based on technical specifications alone. Experienced photographers know this very well. Not all pixels are created equal and more is not necessarily better than less, nor less than more, nor smaller than bigger or bigger than smaller. A lot of technology goes into the performance of these devices that never gets picked-up in published specs and makes a monumental difference to performance quality. Be careful on this one.

Yes I am aware that not all sensors are created equal and other aspect plays a big role.  I will dig up more info on the actual sensor technical, as well as the image processor used in that camera. But one has to question where does the extra charge comes from? Is it the mechanical design, optics, imaging pipepline?  Lets hope DxO mark publishes some test on this camera.

I have respect for Leica, but mostly on the optics side and they are also well known in the metrology sector. But I question their competence in digital.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 06:14:43 PM by traderjay »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2017, 08:09:14 PM »

Yes I am aware that not all sensors are created equal and other aspect plays a big role.  I will dig up more info on the actual sensor technical, as well as the image processor used in that camera. But one has to question where does the extra charge comes from? Is it the mechanical design, optics, imaging pipepline?  Lets hope DxO mark publishes some test on this camera.
But I question their competence in digital.

Who are YOU to question their competence in digital?

People who buy Leica equipment don't have to question where the pricing comes from because they know what they're buying. It's everything from start to finish, and in particular the standards of quality control - you can read all about that on this website in articles going back to 2009, if not earlier.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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JeanMichel

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2017, 09:27:46 PM »

I am often amused by unflattering comments regarding Leica equipment made by people who neither own, use or intend to use such equipment. Yes, a digital M10 body costs some CDN $8600. If that is not worth it in your opinion, then do not buy it and just move on. Yes, the new Leica CL is much more expensive than similar models from other makers, again, if you do not think it is worth it, then just ignore it and move on. I have both Leica stuff (everything from film M's to an M9 and MP) and dSR's with many bells and whistles. I use them all, but am much happier using the Leicas. The files from my digital M's are really good, but so are the ones from my Canon equipment, although I find that the combination of Leica lenses and files produce better results.

I have not handled an a CL. Therefore, I cannot possibly have an opinion on it. I do trust some reviewers, including Kevin. and based on that I would be tempted to travel to a dealer and see how it might fit my needs in the future.   
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 09:01:50 AM by JeanMichel »
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2017, 04:17:35 AM »

We all know that Leica makes very high quality products, and that the cost comes from the extra mile they go towards ensuring quality of materials and quality of workmanship and stringent quality control.

But in the digital age, where cameras are basically computers, the idea that a Leica M digital will last as long as the film ones is just a pie in the sky. It is not a matter of competence of Leica in producing top quality digital products. It's simply a matter of life, computers and chips will fail, eventually. And they tend to fail sooner than simpler mechanical cameras.

Anyone buying a digital camera knows that. Thus, for those potential photographers that need to make a financial stretch to buy a Leica, it is worth thinking carefully.

KLaban

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2017, 05:08:21 AM »

Not in depth. But that doesn't mean one cannot judge a camera based on technical specifications.

Yes I am aware that not all sensors are created equal and other aspect plays a big role.  I will dig up more info on the actual sensor technical, as well as the image processor used in that camera. But one has to question where does the extra charge comes from? Is it the mechanical design, optics, imaging pipepline?  Lets hope DxO mark publishes some test on this camera.

I have respect for Leica, but mostly on the optics side and they are also well known in the metrology sector. But I question their competence in digital.

I'd question the veracity of anyone making a judgement on a camera using the specifications alone or making a judgement on a manufacturer of which they have little or no experience. I'd suggest that anyone doing so is a technophile rather than a photographer. 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 05:14:04 AM by KLaban »
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Rob C

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2017, 08:10:33 AM »

I'd question the veracity of anyone making a judgement on a camera using the specifications alone or making a judgement on a manufacturer of which they have little or no experience. I'd suggest that anyone doing so is a technophile rather than a photographer.

Not one to miss an opportunity should it give me advance warning, here is an illustration of the perfect technophobe. Testament from the time when cameras were cameras and lasted until you wanted to change them or, perhaps, actually wore them out. This one survived pro usage from the early 70s right up into the mid-80s when a wind-on problem resulted in a repair just as bad as the problem: from not winding on at all, it became stiff to wind on. Some would have seen that as an encouraging advance of the status quo. I didn't.



;-)

Rob

KLaban

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2017, 08:32:40 AM »

There was a time I imagined that my Hasselblad V series cameras would be buried alongside me. Then along came digital and disposable cameras. Thank the Gods that optics stand the test of time!

;-)
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Rob C

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2017, 10:21:26 AM »

There was a time I imagined that my Hasselblad V series cameras would be buried alongside me. Then along came digital and disposable cameras. Thank the Gods that optics stand the test of time!

;-)

Keith, I don't have the heart to venture back into my Hassy history; as you know, ditching them for 6x7 was my first manifestation of the male menopause. I can't even remember the next one, but perhaps by late evening it will have come back to me... I am not pulling your leg: it can't have been more than a week ago that I dreamed that I'd left the case with the 'blad stuff somewhere stupìd, unattended, then went back to collect it and the case was there - empty. This has been dreamed on previous occasions, too, along with other fantasies about my first Ford, a Popular ('59), sitting in the garage, unused, and in perfect condition; other nights it's the Humber or even that X1/9 which, in retrospect, would have been perfect here. Maybe that explains the occasional bandana: something tight to prevent the head exploding.

Another two viewers tomorrow - and it's pouring today... great timing for selling dreams of summer retreats! However, great to have viewers at all; this other agency has obviously got its act together. Let's hope they can also close deals!

Rob

KLaban

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2017, 10:41:21 AM »

Keith, I don't have the heart to venture back into my Hassy history; as you know, ditching them for 6x7 was my first manifestation of the male menopause. I can't even remember the next one, but perhaps by late evening it will have come back to me... I am not pulling your leg: it can't have been more than a week ago that I dreamed that I'd left the case with the 'blad stuff somewhere stupìd, unattended, then went back to collect it and the case was there - empty. This has been dreamed on previous occasions, too, along with other fantasies about my first Ford, a Popular ('59), sitting in the garage, unused, and in perfect condition; other nights it's the Humber or even that X1/9 which, in retrospect, would have been perfect here. Maybe that explains the occasional bandana: something tight to prevent the head exploding.

Another two viewers tomorrow - and it's pouring today... great timing for selling dreams of summer retreats! However, great to have viewers at all; this other agency has obviously got its act together. Let's hope they can also close deals!

Rob

Regrets, I've had a few...

:-(

Rob, great news on the viewings, fingers well and truly crossed. That said, do you remember just how cold it gets in Scotland?

;-)
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Rob C

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2017, 12:11:34 PM »

Regrets, I've had a few...

:-(

Rob, great news on the viewings, fingers well and truly crossed. That said, do you remember just how cold it gets in Scotland?

;-)


Remember? How could I forget? Buy hey, you know the reasons for the basic motivation which isn't going to change via wishful thinking on my part. Of course, should the lottery come up, off the market it goes and I take myself on that car odyssey across Europe and down to Rome. No, probably not in the Fiesta, despite new initials!

What rhymes with shaman and has four wheels?

:-)

Rob

P.S. Having trawled the site and duly noted the size and shape of the trunk, it would probably be a new Mustang instead. Hardtop, of course.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 12:38:06 PM by Rob C »
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KLaban

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2017, 12:48:46 PM »


Remember? How could I forget? Buy hey, you know the reasons for the basic motivation which isn't going to change via wishful thinking on my part. Of course, should the lottery come up, off the market it goes and I take myself on that car odyssey across Europe and down to Rome. No, probably not in the Fiesta, despite new initials!

What rhymes with shaman and has four wheels?

:-)

Rob

P.S. Having trawled the site and duly noted the size and shape of the trunk, it would probably be a new Mustang instead. Hardtop, of course.

Hey, I'm still dropping hints to Viv but she just ignores them: so, what's new?

;-)
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Telecaster

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2017, 03:49:14 PM »

I do sometimes wish someone besides Leica made a proper M-compatible camera. Such a device wouldn’t need to be a rangefinder but IMO it should be able to detect focusing movement (not hard to do!) and then respond by auto-magnifying its EVF. It could even do AF in the manner of a Techart Pro. Then again it would also need a sensor tuned to (or at least accomodating of) the quirks of M lens design. It would be a niche product just as Leicas are. It could be less expensive due to the lack of mechanical precision & fine-tuning needed, and the lack of need to appeal to the luxury market, but it likely wouldn’t be inexpensive. I’m not *expecting to see such a camera…

I love rangefinders myself: both the mechanical aspects of them and with Ms in particular the ability to see outside the FOV of most lenses. My glasses-assisted eyesight is still good enough to accurately focus with an RF. My dad could still do it in his late 80s so maybe I’ll get lucky and be able to keep at it ‘til I drop.  :)

-Dave-

*OTOH Kickstarter has successfully funded some pretty niche camera and lens projects
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 03:52:39 PM by Telecaster »
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traderjay

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2017, 03:51:07 PM »

We all know that Leica makes very high quality products, and that the cost comes from the extra mile they go towards ensuring quality of materials and quality of workmanship and stringent quality control.

But in the digital age, where cameras are basically computers, the idea that a Leica M digital will last as long as the film ones is just a pie in the sky. It is not a matter of competence of Leica in producing top quality digital products. It's simply a matter of life, computers and chips will fail, eventually. And they tend to fail sooner than simpler mechanical cameras.

Anyone buying a digital camera knows that. Thus, for those potential photographers that need to make a financial stretch to buy a Leica, it is worth thinking carefully.


Couldn't have said it better! I've always respected Leica's optical prowess but that alone couldn't keep them afloat, so going digital is the only option for them. I am in technical marketing so comparing things on a technical aspect is my interest for the lack of a better word. One can also question if the price charged is based on technical merit or some "imaginary" prestige or brand perception. If you charge a product that is double that of the rest, there must be some underlying reasons. Does it have a revolutionary sensor or other aspect that is not found elsewhere. In the semiconductor world, there are absolutes when it comes to performance and price (22 core CPU always outperforms 18 core CPU). Not so much in the camera world when alot of things resolve around fuzzier items.

Leica takes off the shelf sensors and assemble it into their designed bodies. They tout their mechanical design as superior but it is not rocket science. It means they use a lower standard deviation for quality control and better machining process, or maybe more of a "hand made" approach. All these are child play when it comes to real high-quality precision manufacturing. A DMG Mori 5 Axis machine can easily product parts that far exceeds Leica quality. This could be the smoke and mirrors used by them to charge a higher price?

Coming back to the sensors, Leica does not design or manufacturer their own sensors so nothing revolutionary from that end. The real trailblazers are Sony and Canon and even microsoft with their curved sensor technology. So at the end of the day, maybe its the optics, prestige and facade.
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Telecaster

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2017, 03:59:26 PM »

traderjay, I think you fail to get that the luxury market is Leica’s intended target. The rest of photodom doesn’t matter much to them, nor does it need to. Those of us here who’re into their stuff are at the periphery of their focus. There’s no point in wasting your time & energy being unimpressed by products that aren’t intended to impress you.

-Dave-
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2017, 04:06:19 PM »


Leica takes off the shelf sensors and assemble it into their designed bodies.

Coming back to the sensors, Leica does not design or manufacturer their own sensors so nothing revolutionary from that end.

They don' take "off the shelf" sensors. Selected third-party manufacturers make sensors especially for Leica to Leica specifications.


All these are child play when it comes to real high-quality precision manufacturing. A DMG Mori 5 Axis machine can easily product parts that far exceeds Leica quality.


How do you know? How relevant is a DMG Mori 5 Axis machine to camera manufacture? What is the micro-millimetric precision needed to manufacture a camera that performs flawlessly to the highest standard of image sharpness achievable? Can you tell us? What is your definition of "high-quality precision manufacturing" as it applies to making a contemporary high-end digital camera? What do you know about the wastage involved in Leica's approach to quality control and how much that adds to the costs and therefore the prices of the equipment? Numbers? Data? Anything?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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traderjay

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2017, 04:22:02 PM »

traderjay, I think you fail to get that the luxury market is Leica’s intended target. The rest of photodom doesn’t matter much to them, nor does it need to. Those of us here who’re into their stuff are at the periphery of their focus. There’s no point in wasting your time & energy being unimpressed by products that aren’t intended to impress you.

-Dave-

If that is the case, can we safely conclude that Leica is 1% substance and 99% facade? If its a luxury product then there still should be differentiating factor that commands the price premium. When one buys a Herme bag or a Christian Dior coutoure dress, one knows why the item is priced in a certain way because of the material usage, craftsmanship and timeless heritage. Not so much with a throwaway camera.
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traderjay

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2017, 04:27:13 PM »

They don' take "off the shelf" sensors. Selected third-party manufacturers make sensors especially for Leica to Leica specifications.

How do you know? How relevant is a DMG Mori 5 Axis machine to camera manufacture? What is the micro-millimetric precision needed to manufacture a camera that performs flawlessly to the highest standard of image sharpness achievable? Can you tell us? What is your definition of "high-quality precision manufacturing" as it applies to making a contemporary high-end digital camera? What do you know about the wastage involved in Leica's approach to quality control and how much that adds to the costs and therefore the prices of the equipment? Numbers? Data? Anything?

One can say the sensors used by Leica is customized by the third party manufacturer to spec but is not a in-house design unlike Canon or Sony. Leica doesn't have the technical expertise to design their own CMOS/CCD sensors from the grounds up.

When I refer to the precision manufacturing, I am referring to the camera body. Making those to the precision and craftsman ship that Leica touts as competitive advantage is not rocket science. I guarantee you critical aerospace and automotive components have higher precision than Leica bodies. Leica's quality control involves either super high part rejects (to meet their requirements) or very tight control in their manufacturing process.

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Mark D Segal

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2017, 04:33:21 PM »

I think luxury is the wrong expression for describing the Leica market. The Leica market are the people willing to pay Leica prices for the uncompromising quality of design, materials and quality control that go into their products. This costs. And in this sense, no Leica is a "throwaway". Leicas made 75 years ago can be performing just fine today. What happens with digital technology, however, is that it becomes technically obsolete long before it ever wears out - that is a different story and affects Leica like it would affect any other digital brand; but people who buy these cameras do so for the beauty of the design, the "feel" of the camera, how it handles and the image quality. Those people have the means to buy these cameras even if they know they may be replacing them with more updated technology several years down the road, at high cost. That's the market for Leica. Don't disparage the brand because you may not share the values or perhaps don't have the means of that clientele.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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traderjay

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Re: New Article/Review - Just Published A Hands On Review Of The Leica CL
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2017, 04:37:56 PM »

I think luxury is the wrong expression for describing the Leica market. The Leica market are the people willing to pay Leica prices for the uncompromising quality of design, materials and quality control that go into their products. This costs. And in this sense, no Leica is a "throwaway". Leicas made 75 years ago can be performing just fine today. What happens with digital technology, however, is that it becomes technically obsolete long before it ever wears out - that is a different story and affects Leica like it would affect any other digital brand; but people who buy these cameras do so for the beauty of the design, the "feel" of the camera, how it handles and the image quality. Those people have the means to buy these cameras even if they know they may be replacing them with more updated technology several years down the road, at high cost. That's the market for Leica. Don't disparage the brand because you may not share the values or perhaps don't have the means of that clientele.

Digital Leica is a throwaway because I don't see how the M10 users can justify their use when next-generation sensors can lets say deliver double the ISO performance or can shoot at 0 lux (for exaggeration purpose). Unless Leica makes a camera with user-changeable sensor, then all that engineering, quality control into the body etc goes into the dumps when a better sensor comes along.

As yourself this, typical German luxury automobile cost $80K. A Leica camera costs on average $15K. does it really take. It is really 5.3X harder to make a car than a camera?
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