ImageProGraf PRO-1000 incredibly absurd support

[LorenzoD]

My ImageProGraf PRO-1000 stopped working after only a dozen of A4 prints with error code B209 and the need to call Canon support.
After informing Canon Business Italia support (I live in Italy) I received the call from the technician to scheduling the repairing intervention (this model  is expected to have on-site technical intervention). The technician supposed that it could be probably needed the print head to be replaced, the problem is  he told me that I had to provide an entire set of new ink cartridges (700 euros worth) as the new ink head needs a certain quantity of ink to run when installed and the ink left in the already installed cartridges couldn't be enough. Moreover I also had to provide some maintainance cartridges probably needed to accomplish the operation. I would also highlight that the printer is under warranty as it is less than a year old.
After struggling to find a support supervisor he also confirmed this policy. He told me that the warranty doesn't include the inks so I do have to provide them.
It seems to me incredibly absurd and really unfair that a customer, in addition to undergo the annoyance of a faulty product, had to also economically contribute to the repair and also worry about providing the needed materials.
I really would expected, for a professional product like the PRO-1000 (still under warranty), a professional support.
If the printer can't be repaired without extra inks, I think that Canon should simply substitute it.
For the moment I refused to endure this ridiculous policy.
I would like to know if someone had a similar experience or it is a  Canon Business Italia policy only.

[Mark D Segal]

This is an interesting case, so I shall follow how it evolves in this thread. I would be inclined to expect that for a product under warranty it is the company's responsibility to do and to provide what is needed to return it to its in-warranty working condition, whether that is by repairing this printer or providing you with another one - say a refurbished unit in fine working condition.

I would also suggest that you read the warranty document that came with the printer to see whether it addresses the question of ancillary supplies to a repair that is in-warranty. If it says nothing about this I suggest one could legitimately assume the materials are unexceptional and therefore covered.

[Tibor O]

I would like to know if someone had a similar experience or it is a  Canon Business Italia policy only.

Canon has Standard European Warranty System, here is in Italian Here are the Canon EWS Contact Details

Here is the scope of the On-Site Warranty service:

On-Site Warranty service will be provided in one of the following ways:
• On-Site Repair (via technician), which covers all associated labour costs (including call out, travel and repair times) and the cost of all service parts
• On-Site Exchange (via courier), which covers cost of replacement product and all associated shipping costs.

I think that you could argue that the ink that the new print head will use for its alignment (printing the alignment sheets) is in fact part of the cost of all service parts 

[Mark D Segal]

Canon has Standard European Warranty System, here is in Italian Here are the Canon EWS Contact Details

Here is the scope of the On-Site Warranty service:

I think that you could argue that the ink that the new print head will use for its alignment (printing the alignment sheets) is in fact part of the cost of all service parts 

Perhaps, but reading the Exclusions (Limits) in the Standard EWS Conditions, it says that "consumables" are excluded from the warranty. It may be argued that ink is a consumable. It is for sure a consumable in a normal printing context, but whether that should hold in a repair context is perhaps another, interesting, question.

[LorenzoD]

Yes, as the Canon Support manager told me, the inks are excluded by warranty. BUT nowhere is written in the EWS Conditions that that the customer must provide the inks if the installed ones are not enough to fill the new print head. The same should be applicable to the maintenance cartridges possibly needed.

[Mark D Segal]

One could argue as well that the damaged print head has caused wastage of the ink that is currently within it, such that replacement of this ink should be covered - unless that is considered "consumable" rather than a "component", per the EWS conditions. On the positive side, however, once the ink is charged into the printhead you can use it for printing - it's not lost, and you can probably reinsert the old cartridges if they are not completely empty, use them until empty, then put in the new ones needed to complete the repair, so your loss in this case is confined only to the (probably small) amount of ink needed to replenish the printhead. That said, there is perhaps a more important source of loss that should be considered: when they recharge the printer as part of the repair process, it would be good for you to track the amount of ink that goes into the waste tank. You can do this by weighing the tank before and after the repair to see how many grams of ink were added by the repair and recharging process. It wouldn't be surprising if this were considerable. You can convert from grams to ml using a specific gravity factor of 0.92.

[henrikolsen]

I had the same absurd Canon EU support argument thrown at me earlier this year when a Pro-1000 of mine had issues. Was also asked to make available a set of new inks and maintenance tanks up front for them to begin troubleshooting and fix the printer. I had several discussions about the unfairness of this, and insisted it could not be my problem what costs and materials they would need to troubleshoot and fix the unit under warranty.

I think they are way out of line trying to demand consumables for fixing warranty problems. They are reading those terms as the devil reads the bible, and seem very arrogant trying to solve the problem, not in any way expressing it might be an inconvenience that their product isn't working - almost making the customer the problem, not their own. Note that your warranty claim/issue is _not_ about the ink. You, as I did, do not have an issue with ink itself, and do not issue a warranty claim for the ink to be replaced. You have other printer issues. If they happen to require the use of ink for Canon to work out, that can hardly be the customers problem, but solely Canons. Does a car manufacturer require the car owner to pay for oils if the engine or gear train has obvious warranty issues, how about brake fluids if swapping brake calipers etc? It seems absurd, and I really hope you will argue the same, and help stop this nonsense. Is it really what they feel is "the right thing" to do? Canon, what do you benefit from this? Happy, loyal customers, good PR? I would think not.
Problems with their gear takes a lot of wasted time, money and energy for customers, so if anything, they could fairly compensate those troubles with actually supplying extra consumables instead.

I took a long and exhausting fight and they finally gave in and replaced the whole printer, not being able to defend their weak arguments and stand my counter arguments any longer. But it was a struggle that left bad marks in my thoughts about the company (heavily invested in their gear).

Best of luck with this. Sorry you have to go through it, and hope Canon will learn customer satisfaction is gold.

[dhachey]

I can't speak to the matter of Canon support in the EU, but here in the US I have had only superb support.  I bought the Pro-1000 about 18 months ago, after reading several reviews here and by Keith on Northlight Images.  My printer arrived, I ran the usual test prints (all gorgeous), and then it died after about a week of use.  I don't remember the failure code, but according to Keith it was a bad one.  Canon shipped a new printer by overnight air freight.  It came with a full set of ink cartridges, and appeared to be a new (not reconditioned) printer.  Since then the printer has been working flawlessly for me, which is more than I can say for my Lexus...

Sorry to hear of your problems, and I hope that Canon does the right thing to fix your problem. 

[Farmer]

That's terrible.  The exclusion of consumables surely means that if the consumables fail they're not covered for such a long period of time, not that if you need them in order to fix a hardware fault they're excluded.

None of the vendors here in Australia would get away with that - they all cover the consumables required in the event of a hardware repair under warranty.  I think you should challenge that.

[Dan Wells]

I've certainly heard of Canon USA providing ink to replace that lost in a repair (I hope it's policy, but it might be up to individual service centers). I would also be surprised if a Pro-1000 drinks all that much ink to change a head (a Pro-4000 might be a different story, depending on how much of the lines it drains). If you've only printed a couple dozen A4 prints, I'm surprised there isn't enough ink left. My Pro-2000 printed 100 feet of 24" wide paper before running out of ink in the first cartridge (those are bigger cartridges, but it's also a bigger printer with much longer lines going to the heads, and the sub-tanks are probably larger as well). I've changed heads on older Canon printers, and it's not a full drain of the lines (since I haven't done it in a few years, I forget how much ink it takes)...

Dan

[LorenzoD]

I'm happy to hear I'm not the only one with this problem. Then, it seems it's a policy adopted by Canon EU, as US and Australian users didn't experience the same issue.
I would really like to hear from some Canon EU representative here in this forum...

However, after struggling to reach a Canon Support responsible and many calls for days, I finally found someone able to take some decisions, he told me that Canon will give the necessary inks to his technician to accomplish the new print head filling (then they will put in again my original inks). But he also highlighted that they did this exception uniquely for me...
It seems that contrasting their weak arguments finally produces some effects.
However, as henrikolsen has also well explained, this experience arise many doubts about Canon credibility.

@ Dan Wells:
My Pro-1000 printed no more than 15 A4 and all the inks are now at 1/5 of their capacity, except CO, GY and Y that already have the warning symbol and the MC-20 is quite full.
I think that this printer waste a lot of ink every time it is turned on or for auto cleaning processes. Also, maybe at the first print head installation it fills the print head and tubes with a lot of ink. Moreover I'm not sure if the ink cartridges provided with the printer are really full (80ml).

[Mark D Segal]

Lorenzo, I think you've achieved a sensible solution with Canon - they will do what they need to do in order to leave you with a fully functional printer. This should be the default position for every one, not an exception for one individual. One would hope that between the experiences you and Hendrik Olsen have reported, responsible officials in the Canon organization will rethink this matter and do what's commercially sensible and morally correct by their customers.

[unesco]

I'm happy to hear I'm not the only one with this problem. Then, it seems it's a policy adopted by Canon EU, as US and Australian users didn't experience the same issue.
I would really like to hear from some Canon EU representative here in this forum...

However, after struggling to reach a Canon Support responsible and many calls for days, I finally found someone able to take some decisions, he told me that Canon will give the necessary inks to his technician to accomplish the new print head filling (then they will put in again my original inks). But he also highlighted that they did this exception uniquely for me...
It seems that contrasting their weak arguments finally produces some effects.
However, as henrikolsen has also well explained, this experience arise many doubts about Canon credibility.

That all you have written looks very suspicious! I think they are trying to cheat on you - sorry for being straight. I know at least one case of print head exchange in Pro-1000 in Europe, where Canon technicians have supplied the full set of ink cartridges and it was ordinary procedure (under warranty). That, what you have written about no guarantee for inks is about inks themselves, if they fail anyhow by any reason, not about your case of print-head fail.
Epson does the same in Europe, full coverage of new carts and maintenance tank (my case of 3880 and many others I know).
So, in my opinion, they are not doing exception for you.

[GrahamBy]

I would be stunned if what they are proposing is legal under EU law.

[StephaneB]

The thing is, the service generally provided by shops and vendors here in Europe is of a much lower standard than in US, with wide variations making it very unpredictable. Every time I travel to US I am amazed at the good service I seemingly get everywhere.

[enduser]

Stephane, I had a look at your web page and the photos you have there are outstanding.

[LorenzoD]

That all you have written looks very suspicious! I think they are trying to cheat on you - sorry for being straight. I know at least one case of print head exchange in Pro-1000 in Europe, where Canon technicians have supplied the full set of ink cartridges and it was ordinary procedure (under warranty). That, what you have written about no guarantee for inks is about inks themselves, if they fail anyhow by any reason, not about your case of print-head fail.
Epson does the same in Europe, full coverage of new carts and maintenance tank (my case of 3880 and many others I know).
So, in my opinion, they are not doing exception for you.

I'm perfectly agree with you, but the Canon representative insisted that they are not obliged to provide the necessary inks and that it is perfectly normal that these consumable should be provided by the user if needed.
He was clear supporting that they make an exception.

However I'm still waiting the call from the technician (4 days has passed). They told me that it would take some days for the inks to arrive (from another european country).

[barrybraunstein]

Hi - I have to say that I have been more than pleased by Canon support here in the US - I had an issue after only several months of use. They not only helped me solve the issue, but also were very understanding and more than fair in how they handled what it cost me in materials from the issue. I couldn't ask for more from a vendor - and the prints are amazing to boot! I'm NOT a Canon fanboy (I shoot Nikon) but I have to say I'm impressed with their service.

[Ernst Dinkla]

There is an illusion among US citizens that EU consumer laws are better than in the US. They are not in practice. One of the reasons is that class action laws are just starting to appear in the EU and the cases have to be brought first to state courts before EU judges can act. Differences between juridical systems in countries add to that complexity. Meanwhile the size of company lobby groups in Brussels equal those of Washington. You just had to watch the diesel car scandal spreading and notice that Brussels was not the first to act.

I recall the introduction of the first Canon iPF wide formats here in The Netherlands. The heads were not that reliable either then but Canon replaced them without costs even beyond the warranty period. I have to admit that was for a customer who used gallons of ink a year. Now more established PR becomes less important to the company even for that customer.

Use the forums like this one to get your complaints across I would say and mention that action to the EU representatives of the company. The forums in the EU are split too over different languages and by that over countries to be as effective.

BTW, I am not a Eurosceptic.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

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[PH Focal-Scape]

Hello Lorenzo.

Today my Canon Pro 1000 printer produced the same error B209 and now no PBK ink is getting through (replace cartridge and same problem).

Did you eventually find out what caused such an error and how did you fix it?

Thanks

Regards

Peter

My ImageProGraf PRO-1000 stopped working after only a dozen of A4 prints with error code B209 and the need to call Canon support.