Canvas problem. Black inks extreme sensitive. Hard to varnish

[smikkelmit22]

Hi,

I'm having an issue for some time. We print canvas now and then.

Everytime we print on canvas (tried multiple: poly/cotton/cotton satin) with multiple printers: Designjet: 2100, 3100, 3200, 6100 and Epson Stylus Pro 11880

And all have the same issue: when we print canvases that contains much black ink: they get 'damaged' with one singel touch. Meaning: if you touch the black with a finger, you will immediately see a very noticeable stain/sweep which. The black ink is very sensitive.

We have tried varnishing the canvas, which has great results, but it has other problems. We found that it was very hard to apply. It was very hard for us to apply a even clear layer of varnish.

For that reason we tried: daige EZ Glide. Which worked, but also has imperfections.

For us, the best result for getting this done correctly, is using our epson with photoblack on satin canvas.

I'm wondering, how do you guys do this? I found that it is extreme hard to get decent results.

Am i doing something wrong here?

Thanks and best regards

[Paul2660]

I have printed quite a bit on Canvas, both Breathing color Crystalline, and Lexjet Sunset glossy. 

For best protection, even though both manufacturers claim it's not needed, I always coat them.  I use a HVLP sprayer, usually 1 coat, of Timeless, also by Breathing Color.

Inkjet canvas, non coated glossy, or satin, will easily rub off and or is very get a finger print on or  to finger print rub offs.  It's also totally at risk from any water or spray, so if someone is not aware of it, and is cleaning the frame, they may get some on the print and with all  inkjet canvas you will have a big issue.

Other solution is solvent, which is bomb proof and with the latest Epson printers, looks identical to the output of your 11800.  But that requires a totally different printer.  However most of your large print shops now use Solvent as it doesn't need to be coated and is less fragile that inkjet canvas.

Paul Caldwell

[mearussi]

The only time I've ever had a problem with this is when I tried to print Breathing Color Lyve and Chromata White canvas on an Epson 4800. BC's canvas doesn't absorb black ink very well and so it's still wet to the touch when it comes out of the printer (and stays that way--it never fully drys) so it comes off with the slightest touch. The solution is to print them using glossy black ink, which works fine.

MK has much higher pigment content than PK due to the matte surface being (normally) more absorbent, but BC's canvas is an exception. The reason for this problem is that Epson puts down about 50% more ink than Canon does so if a company designs a paper (or canvas) using just the Canon to test it on there can be problems printing it on Epson printers. A Canson tech rep told me that many of their canvases had to be recently redesigned due to this problem. I'm now using Canson's Museum Pro matte (MK ink) and Luster (PK ink) without problems.

My suggestion is to either try printing them (if they are matte canvases) using PK ink or just try different canvasses to see if you're also having this problem. You can also decrease the Density setting in your printer, but depending on your software if you can't adjust just the black density then you'll wind up lowering the color saturation in your print.

For more detailed suggestions you might want to list the exact canvasses you're using.

[Garnick]

Hi,

I'm having an issue for some time. We print canvas now and then.

Everytime we print on canvas (tried multiple: poly/cotton/cotton satin) with multiple printers: Designjet: 2100, 3100, 3200, 6100 and Epson Stylus Pro 11880

And all have the same issue: when we print canvases that contains much black ink: they get 'damaged' with one singel touch. Meaning: if you touch the black with a finger, you will immediately see a very noticeable stain/sweep which. The black ink is very sensitive.

We have tried varnishing the canvas, which has great results, but it has other problems. We found that it was very hard to apply. It was very hard for us to apply a even clear layer of varnish.

For that reason we tried: daige EZ Glide. Which worked, but also has imperfections.

For us, the best result for getting this done correctly, is using our epson with photoblack on satin canvas.

I'm wondering, how do you guys do this? I found that it is extreme hard to get decent results.

Am i doing something wrong here?

Thanks and best regards

I don't believe you are doing anything wrong, it's just the nature of the matt black ink.  This also happens on matt papers.  When I print on Fine Art matt papers I always include a note to the customer to let them know that the print has not been sprayed, so great care must be taken when handling, especially in dense black areas.  The matt black ink burnishes very easily unfortunately.  I print on matt canvas.  The idea behind that is the MK ink seems to "soak" into the canvas better than printing on satin canvas.  I then apply three coats of Premier Art Eco Print Shield.  I've been using the EPS coating for more than 12 years with no issues, except for a couple of occasions, and Premier Art supplied a new container immediately.  The EPS is very easy to use, but there are a couple of things I learned about it early on which helped.  As long as you follow the EPS instructions you should have no problem.  I use Breathing Color Chromata White matt canvas, which has been a great choice for me and my customers.  You could get a sample 13 or 17" roll from your local distributor of the canvas and give it a try.  Perhaps get the pint size EPS and try it as well, just a thought.  I would definitely suggest the matt canvas over the satin, but I'm sure there are many who have great success with the satin as well.

Hope this helps.

EDIT:  As I was writing, two more replies were posted.  The most recent one mentions a problem that I have never noticed with the MK ink on B.C. Chromata White Matt canvas, although I've never been a fan of the Lyve canvas.  However, as I have mentioned, my main reason for using the Chromata White Matt is the fact that it does indeed absorb the inks much better, especially the MK.  I have never had any issue with canvas prints exiting the printer wet.  Of course one should always let the canvas sit for at least 24 hours before applying the first coat.  That helps the curing process that is necessary.   

Gary     

[smikkelmit22]

Thanks for all the quick reactions and possible solutions.

I have tried multiple canvases, but to be fair, i mostly use the 'cheap' large 330/340g quantity rolls.


However, i recently tried the : "EPSON WATER RESISTANT MATTE CANVAS ROLL"
I have to admit the results were better. The canvas is still very vulnerable, but way less.

To be honest, i think my best solution is to grab a solvent printer like Paul2660 said. If i buy a used model it should be doable.

I will also try the "Premier Art Eco Print Shield" To see how this varnish works for me, hope i can get a clear layer on it without any issues.

The reason i'm going for a solvent is mostly because of the time consumption of applying varnish. But i will give the Premier Art Eco Print Shield a try !

Thanks all!

[Garnick]

Thanks for all the quick reactions and possible solutions.

I have tried multiple canvases, but to be fair, i mostly use the 'cheap' large 330/340g quantity rolls.


However, i recently tried the : "EPSON WATER RESISTANT MATTE CANVAS ROLL"
I have to admit the results were better. The canvas is still very vulnerable, but way less.

To be honest, i think my best solution is to grab a solvent printer like Paul2660 said. If i buy a used model it should be doable.

I will also try the "Premier Art Eco Print Shield" To see how this varnish works for me, hope i can get a clear layer on it without any issues.

The reason i'm going for a solvent is mostly because of the time consumption of applying varnish. But i will give the Premier Art Eco Print Shield a try !

Thanks all!

Hi again,

Some advice re EPS.  Do not overwork the coating.  If you use the matt canvas it will soak in very quickly and you will not get an "even" first coat.  Not to worry, since the second coat will take care of the uneven appearance.  When you apply the second and third coats you will probably have a lot of tiny bubbles, but again, do not over work it.  Those bubbles will disappear and leave a very even coat.  I apply with a 6" high density foam roller with no issues, even the larger 40x60" canvases.  Of course I can no longer do that size with the P7000, but I have done a lot of them in the past and coated with EPS.

Gary

[dgberg]

Have not seen it covered but you must leave it dry properly.
When I have a high black content overnight at minimum.
Not say ing you need 24 hours but 12 sure is suggested.
I usually lay out all my canvases overnight, no touching either!
If the ink is really dry it should not matter if you spray or roll although our preference is spraying.

[mearussi]

Thanks for all the quick reactions and possible solutions.

I have tried multiple canvases, but to be fair, i mostly use the 'cheap' large 330/340g quantity rolls.


However, i recently tried the : "EPSON WATER RESISTANT MATTE CANVAS ROLL"
I have to admit the results were better. The canvas is still very vulnerable, but way less.

To be honest, i think my best solution is to grab a solvent printer like Paul2660 said. If i buy a used model it should be doable.

I will also try the "Premier Art Eco Print Shield" To see how this varnish works for me, hope i can get a clear layer on it without any issues.

The reason i'm going for a solvent is mostly because of the time consumption of applying varnish. But i will give the Premier Art Eco Print Shield a try !

Thanks all!

Eco should be applied on matte canvas only (if you apply it to glossy/luster canvas you take the risk of dissolving the ink) in three very thin coats using two rollers, one with the Eco and a dry one to soak up the excess Eco. For the first coat thoroughly saturate the print then using the dry roller soak roll it on the print to soak up all the excess that's left. Let that dry 15-30 minutes, depending on humidity and temperature, and the repeat the first step, though the canvas won't soak up near as much Eco the second or third time.  The first two coats should be glossy and the final third coat should be whatever surface you're wanting. Let dry overnight.

[smikkelmit22]

Hi,

Thanks again for all respones. I thought it was best to add some photo's to give you a idea what is going on.

This canvas was printed a few days ago, my guess is 3 days. It had about 3 days to dry.

First image is without touching the print, second is after touching with my hands and 3th is the result on my fingers.

It looks like the ink is not absorbed well.

[mearussi]

Either don't use cheap canvas or switch to printing them using PK ink.

[Garnick]

Hi,

Thanks again for all respones. I thought it was best to add some photo's to give you a idea what is going on.

This canvas was printed a few days ago, my guess is 3 days. It had about 3 days to dry.

First image is without touching the print, second is after touching with my hands and 3th is the result on my fingers.

It looks like the ink is not absorbed well.

Again, very unusual in my opinion.  As always, I can only come at this from my experience.  "Mearussi" has mentioned that the only time he had experienced this is when printing on BC Chromata White on an Epson 4800.  I have never used a 4800, but I have always used Epson wide format printers, 24" and 44".  When I first started printing canvas in 2004 I was using the Premier Art Matt Canvas with great success.  However, over a period of time the cost of that canvas kept increasing, so I tried three other products.  Of the three BC was definitely the best in my opinion, so I switched and have never regretted it.  Since approximately 2007/08 I have printed many canvases on BC Chromata White Matte canvas, and EPS coated as mentioned previously.  I have no idea what I've been doing wrong, but I have absolutely no intention of changing either the canvas type or the coating.  To paraphrase, I have no intention of fixing a combination that is not broken.  Perhaps it's simply sheer luck on my part, but the combination of canvas and coating I have described works beautifully for me.  Again I will say that MK on either canvas or Matt papers is indeed somewhat problematic, in the since that it is very susceptible to burnishing marks if not handled properly.  However, I have never experienced the drying issue you have described.  The one difference here is that I do not print on either Satin or Gloss canvases.

HMMM... I'm in a rush here at the moment, so even though I have just skimmed through all of the replies I don't believe this has actually been mentioned in this sense.  I just referred again to your initial post and found what I was looking for.  This is a quote from that post - "Everytime we print on canvas (tried multiple: poly/cotton/cotton satin)".  The most important word there is "Satin".  I obviously missed that the first go round.  I believe you also mentioned that this drying issue occurs when you are printing with the MK ink on Satin canvas.  Well, that is to be expected.  When printing on a Satin finished canvas one should ALWAYS use the PK ink, no exception.  Another quote from the same post - "For us, the best result for getting this done correctly, is using our epson with photoblack on satin canvas".  EXACTLY what I have just mentioned.  I don't know why I hadn't referred back to the initial post before, but I wish I had done so.  Those two quotes explain it exactly, the problem and the fix.  Use PK on Satin or Gloss Canvas.  Use MK on Matte canvas ONLY.  Of course both PK and MK can be used on a variety of papers as well, but this thread is all about canvas printing.

Gary