Canon imagePROGRAF PRO-4000 44" Versus HP Z3200PS ???

[maxs]

Forum members,

Anyone used or recently purchased a Cannon pro 4000? I am interested in knowing how it is when it comes to maintenance and ink when cleaning cycle is activated? I am being told it is as good behaved as a HP Z3200 !

The price is close enough to the HP Z3200 to justify consideration.

Thoughts/opinions?

Usage is occasional large format photo print/Canvas (at least once a month if not more).

Max

[Dan Wells]

Interestingly, I'm looking at exactly the same question at the 24" size... The one difference is that the 24" HP is more expensive than the Canon, while the situation is reversed at 44" with the great price on the 44" HP.
 Hopefully some of the HP aficionados on here will chime in on how well the HP handles canvas - I've read that the Canon is pretty good.

[deanwork]

The new Canon is much faster and has a more expansive color gamut which is nice, but at the expease of image permanence. The Hp Vivera pigments were rated at twice the longevity as the original Canon Lucia ex inks. Both have about the same gamut. But the new Lucia inks have gone backward in longevity while expanding in color capability. How much they have lost is not xactly known yet. They are in test at Aardenburg. If super long lasting prints are not important to you I would go with the Canon as it is more modern tech and a whole lot faster. I have never wanted with a better gamut on the Z3200 but then I haven't had it to play with either. I don't know about black and white though. My older Canon 8300 utilizes the true black and white rip by bowhaus and the output is great, really identical to the Z3200 bw which is also great. But the TBW rip is not available yet for the new Canons . My Canon bw was horrible without it and excellent with it. Don't know about the new units. Maybe Canon has improved the software plugin for it.  If bw is important to you you should find out. Stellar bw on all media on the Z is a sure thing . I was facing the same decision as you and bought another Z and I'm really happy. If you dont  have profiling equipment, the z has built in x-rite profiling and yes it is dependable on all media and super easy and reliable. Both print excellent canvas and I do mine on both. But like I said the z is pretty slow so I usually use a Canon for big canvas, but not always.

Interestingly, I'm looking at exactly the same question at the 24" size... The one difference is that the 24" HP is more expensive than the Canon, while the situation is reversed at 44" with the great price on the 44" HP.
 Hopefully some of the HP aficionados on here will chime in on how well the HP handles canvas - I've read that the Canon is pretty good.

[maxs]

Dean - thanks for sharing your perspective.

[maxs]

A few questions popped up in my head:
Does the Canon have maintenance tanks?
Does it drink ink during a maintenance cycle?
Does the Canon handle idle time better or as well as the HP? By idle time I mean if the printer is not used for say 1-3 weeks.

[John Nollendorfs]

Max:
One  thing that hasn't been brought up is head replacement. HP 2-color heads cost around $60 each. I've had my Z3100 for 11 years and am only 3rd set of print heads. (couple of heads are on#4).

The Z printers sip  ink very conservatively. Very highly recommend this printer if you don't do that many prints. Very rarely do I do a "nozzle check". Ask any Epson user how many times they do nozzle checks? Oh, and  one last thing, the HP gray component removal means you will use Lt gray ink at about twice of rate of any other color. It also means you will usually come out with a very neutral looking print 99% of the time.  One of the reasons it prints such great B&W without a RIP. It uses Lt Gray, Gray, Photo Black & Matte black to print B&W on matte papers.

[maxs]

Max:
One  thing that hasn't been brought up is head replacement. HP 2-color heads cost around $60 each. I've had my Z3100 for 11 years and am only 3rd set of print heads. (couple of heads are on#4).

The Z printers sip  ink very conservatively. Very highly recommend this printer if you don't do that many prints. Very rarely do I do a "nozzle check". Ask any Epson user how many times they do nozzle checks? Oh, and  one last thing, the HP gray component removal means you will use Lt gray ink at about twice of rate of any other color. It also means you will usually come out with a very neutral looking print 99% of the time.  One of the reasons it prints such great B&W without a RIP. It uses Lt Gray, Gray, Photo Black & Matte black to print B&W on matte papers.

Good point that I totally overlooked.

There are some forces here on this planet that are trying to push me towards the Canon :-) Arguments being put forward are:

1. Newer technology versus nearly a decade old (end of life)
2. 18K print nozzles compared to 3000 (HP) <-- I might be wrong on the HP. This means more can get blocked and still work...I am also told the print heads don't cost much.
3. All printers regardless of make if sat around will get blocked.
4. Only if you are ANAL about color will you need a spectrophotometer. Normal people will not use this feature.
5. Canon will not waste ink either, but them I see references to Maintenance mode.

Just some arguments being thrown at me :-)

[aaronchan]

Good point that I totally overlooked.

There are some forces here on this planet that are trying to push me towards the Canon :-) Arguments being put forward are:

1. Newer technology versus nearly a decade old (end of life)
2. 18K print nozzles compared to 3000 (HP) <-- I might be wrong on the HP. This means more can get blocked and still work...I am also told the print heads don't cost much.
3. All printers regardless of make if sat around will get blocked.
4. Only if you are ANAL about color will you need a spectrophotometer. Normal people will not use this feature.
5. Canon will not waste ink either, but them I see references to Maintenance mode.

Just some arguments being thrown at me :-)

4. WRONG! Anyone who demand a little of color accuracy, just a little, will need a spectrometer and will do their custom icc profile.
The canned profile are always not so good at all.
If you are going to use only few paper, you may want to look for custom profiling services.
But a ColorMunki only cost $500 and you end up a device that can calibrate and profile for both of your monitor and printer.

aaron

[hogloff]

4. WRONG! Anyone who demand a little of color accuracy, just a little, will need a spectrometer and will do their custom icc profile.
The canned profile are always not so good at all.
If you are going to use only few paper, you may want to look for custom profiling services.
But a ColorMunki only cost $500 and you end up a device that can calibrate and profile for both of your monitor and printer.

aaron

Totally agree. The spectrometer is an invaluable feature.

[Ernst Dinkla]

Good point that I totally overlooked.

There are some forces here on this planet that are trying to push me towards the Canon :-) Arguments being put forward are:

1. Newer technology versus nearly a decade old (end of life)
2. 18K print nozzles compared to 3000 (HP) <-- I might be wrong on the HP. This means more can get blocked and still work...I am also told the print heads don't cost much.
3. All printers regardless of make if sat around will get blocked.
4. Only if you are ANAL about color will you need a spectrophotometer. Normal people will not use this feature.
5. Canon will not waste ink either, but them I see references to Maintenance mode.

Just some arguments being thrown at me :-)

The HP certainly has no end of life technology, in retrospect it proofs to be a very good solution for photographer's demands and in that sense it still will for some time to come. It shares that long economic life with the older Designjet 5000 and 5500 models that kept their secondhand value over a much longer period than the competition models could.
HP Z3200 has 2112 nozzles per printhead, 2 colors per printhead, 1056 nozzles per color, 6 heads so 12672 nozzles per printer.
The Canon iPF8300 had in total about double that quantity split on two heads. It could be that they reduced it for the Pro 4000 while keeping the speed equal to the older model.
For low volume production the HP is the dedicated one.
It is also easier in keeping color management correct for a wider range of (changing) papers due to the package of an integrated spectrometer + profiling and calibration software.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[deanwork]

By newer tech I meant speed primarily. When I do big prints for people I get a lot of guitar practice in when I'm using the Zs. which is good for my music education but takes a lot longer to make money printing exhibitions. If you are just doing your own work time is probably not an issue.

Yes if you use the Canon you need good profiling equipment or have custom ones made. Forget about generic profiles.

 The Canon has one maintenance tank which can be reprogrammed in the maintenance mode allowing you to reuse the tank and refill with cotton absorbent material - as you can do with the Epsons of the last series, don't know about the new Epsons .

My Canon uses very little ink over a long period of time for head maintenance whether the printer is being used or not. This is an aspect of the thermal head design. Both of these printers are plugged in all the time and automatically monitor nozzles whether you are using the machines a lot or not at all. Nozzles are always clean in both until the heads need replacing. With the new Canons you only have one head which I believe costs about $800.00 US every couple of years or so.

The Z heads like John said are dirt cheap at about $70.00 US each ( you have six of them for 12 colors) and actually last a very long time, years for each one in my case. They are not cheaply made units. They function extremely well on all media and are super easy to replace while wasting no ink. The only time the Canons waste ink is during head replacement. You have a resevour fill with quite a lot of ink that is dumped during head replacement. With the new ones however that only happens once every couple of years. As frugal as my Canon is with ink for nozzle maintenance, the Z is even more frugal. I have torn both the Z carts and the Canon carts apart when the printer demands replacement and in both cases there is NO ink left in either of them. In both of these printers the ink carts face downward allowing all of it to drain out of the carts.

Like I said earlier in both cases the software does an excellent job of keeping the system clean and ready to go. In my case I can be out of town for over a month and never worry about these printers taking care of themselves. However if you have a lightening surge it can blow your mainboards on either. So....when I am on vacation I unplug them both only for that reason. In 8 years of using both brands I've never taken longer than a couple of minutes to fire them up again. Not with my Epson Ugh.

A few questions popped up in my head:
Does the Canon have maintenance tanks?
Does it drink ink during a maintenance cycle?
Does the Canon handle idle time better or as well as the HP? By idle time I mean if the printer is not used for say 1-3 weeks.