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Author Topic: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?  (Read 4073 times)

henrikfoto

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Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« on: November 09, 2017, 05:04:10 pm »

Thinking of upgrading the XF camera, but is it worth the money?
As I understand they change the af-sensor and also upgrade the firmware.
Very tempting, but still only one focus-point  :-[  Not too impressive when we see
what Fujifilm can do on the «cheap» gfx.

But the point:  Will the xf be a better camera after the upgrade, or do we need
advanced meters to see the change??
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E.J. Peiker

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2017, 05:16:37 pm »

Mine is getting the upgrade now.  I'll report when I've had adequate time to test it which will likely not be until the end of November since I won't be around to test it next week.
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henrikfoto

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2017, 05:29:07 pm »

Mine is getting the upgrade now.  I'll report when I've had adequate time to test it which will likely not be until the end of November since I won't be around to test it next week.


Thank you!
Grateful for that!

Henrik
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DougDolde

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2017, 05:35:28 pm »

Not for me
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henrikfoto

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2017, 05:51:53 pm »

Not for me

You did not see a better camera after the complete update?
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DougDolde

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2017, 06:01:55 pm »

I didn't update and wont
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henrikfoto

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2017, 06:18:54 pm »

I didn't update and wont

Because of what you think or information from other users?
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2017, 06:49:05 pm »

I would suggest working with your dealer to test one of their bodes that has been upgraded and comparing it to your body that hasn’t. That’s what we have been doing with a lot of our clients.

The difference is moderate and is mostly in mid-low light and low contrast subjects.

henrikfoto

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2017, 03:59:52 am »

I would suggest working with your dealer to test one of their bodes that has been upgraded and comparing it to your body that hasn’t. That’s what we have been doing with a lot of our clients.

The difference is moderate and is mostly in mid-low light and low contrast subjects.

Thanks a lot, Doug!!
Do you know why phase cant get more than one focuspoint in this modern system?
Or maybe a moveable point?

Henrik
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2017, 08:12:31 am »

Thanks a lot, Doug!!
Do you know why phase cant get more than one focuspoint in this modern system?
Or maybe a moveable point?

Henrik

No company had ever developed a multipoint Autofocus sensor that covers a meaningful percentage of a medium format frame.

The Pentax 645 has multiple AF points but uses an AF sensor from their APS-C camera line so all the AF points are clumped in the middle of the viewfinder. Fuji GFX and Hasselblad x1D both have multiple ornmovable AF points but they use an EVF and use the sensor for Autofocus (similar to using AF in live view on a Canon 5D3 as one example) not an Autofocus sensor.

Ken Doo

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2017, 11:24:54 am »

I opted to take advantage of the upgrade on my XF AF sensor.  Not everyone may need/want the upgrade for their photographic pursuits---the XF AF performance is very good as it is. I thought it would be worthwhile. I'm eagerly awaiting the return of my XF body now. 

Ken

Paul2660

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2017, 11:38:35 am »

Points all well taken, obviously what would do P1 a great advantage is to have them develop a removable EVF for the XF.  As the viewfinder is removeable and the mirror can be raised up, really no reason.  It's been shown that even on the 50MP sensor quite good AF can be achieved  with both the GFX and X1D. 

Hopefully P1 has something in the works, as added to the XF it would make a great investment even better. 

The fact that the 100MP has HDMI output makes it even more enticing.

Paul Caldwell
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Joe Towner

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2017, 11:50:57 am »

Do you know why phase cant get more than one focuspoint in this modern system?

Doug & others can speak more to this, but it comes down to a technical decision.

The AF point we're use to seeing, it's a sub-assembly on the camera, with it's own dedicated sensor.  So to get a larger AF area - aka more focal points, the Honeycomb sensor has to be larger, and the mirror subassembly has to be larger.  With full frame cameras, this means little, but when you look at the mirror size in the XF & H bodies, it's a big a** mirror already, and adding more mass has downsides.  Clustering a bunch of AF points in the current Honeycomb setup would actually cause more issue, in that if you didn't do a single point AF, the camera could bounce between two focal points when dealing with shallow DoF, and throw things out of focus.  So I BELIEVE** Hass and Phase decided that they would rather have 1 really good focus point, rather than more, less accurate ones.  As contrast detection AF gets better in the larger chips, and you are forced to use EVF's, things will get better.

As to the 645D/Z, since it's a body & back in one unit, they can size it to what ever works for that sensor.  The XF has to take everything from a 40MP 33x44 CCD to a 100MP+ FF CMOS.  Hass could do a bit more since their history has been to sell a back+body, but they still stick their light meter in the viewfinder rather than the AF sensor.
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DougDolde

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2017, 12:22:58 pm »

Because of what you think or information from other users?

I don't need it
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eronald

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2017, 08:14:11 pm »

Inventing reasons why it can't be done is a bit disingenous; it's like people who explain that putting men on the moon is now too expensive or technologically impossible.

 There are probably various ways to do multipoint, and the engineering is doubtless easier than putting men on the moon and probably cheap enough to put in a $60 K (with back) Phase system, but as Doug very correctly points out, in MF there are no drop-in MF subassemblies that can be bought so an AF system implies in-house camera engineering. It is one thing to cost a custom semi-silvered-mirror-submirror-convex submirror-sensor design as a necessity for a $60K system, or for a body that is basically a giveaway to back customers.

 As Doug says quite correctly, Pentax is re-using the APS tech they already have, but the specs of their sensor module mean an APS-C sized bunch of focus points. But I disagree about his secondary mirror discussion, I think it is not the weight of the secondary mirror nor the need for a custom sensor, but rather the fixed convex tertiary mirror that becomes a size and cost issue in MF geometries and flange distances, especially since the secondary submirror always has a very convenient mount-point - the back of the semi-silvered primary mirror- but one needs to create enclosed space in the camera bottom to emplace the larger tertiary convex mirror, the sensor and the optical path connecting them, and do so in a way that does not become a dust-trap. But this is just my intuition.

 When Sony finally put some phase-detect subpixels on the main sensor (if they aren't already there?) the problem will get solved "for free" as regards physical gear. Of course all MF cameras, indeed all AF cameras with CMOS chips and liveview capability should already be able to do contrast-detect AF for static subjects, as this is basically firmware coding only. At some point Sony will probably also make its full-sensor stabiliser design available too, which will certainly improve handheld MF usage :)

 The above remarks from a senile armchair engineer are probably worth as much as they cost you. Let's hope readers feel the Phase AF system is worth what they need to pay for it :)
 
Edmund

Doug & others can speak more to this, but it comes down to a technical decision.

The AF point we're use to seeing, it's a sub-assembly on the camera, with it's own dedicated sensor.  So to get a larger AF area - aka more focal points, the Honeycomb sensor has to be larger, and the mirror subassembly has to be larger.  With full frame cameras, this means little, but when you look at the mirror size in the XF & H bodies, it's a big a** mirror already, and adding more mass has downsides.  Clustering a bunch of AF points in the current Honeycomb setup would actually cause more issue, in that if you didn't do a single point AF, the camera could bounce between two focal points when dealing with shallow DoF, and throw things out of focus.  So I BELIEVE** Hass and Phase decided that they would rather have 1 really good focus point, rather than more, less accurate ones.  As contrast detection AF gets better in the larger chips, and you are forced to use EVF's, things will get better.

As to the 645D/Z, since it's a body & back in one unit, they can size it to what ever works for that sensor.  The XF has to take everything from a 40MP 33x44 CCD to a 100MP+ FF CMOS.  Hass could do a bit more since their history has been to sell a back+body, but they still stick their light meter in the viewfinder rather than the AF sensor.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 08:36:00 pm by eronald »
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E.J. Peiker

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2017, 06:45:40 pm »

I finally got my XF back today.  It took quite a bit longer than anticipated as Phase found a number of things that needed to be upgraded and repaired to make my camera current which required a wait for parts.  All of this was included in the price of the HAP2 upgrade.

I have spent the afternoon playing around with it.  I started by focus trimming all of my lenses and they all changed substantially from their previous value.  In my case, on average the shift was about 75 points in the positive direction from what they were before.  I spent a lot of time doing this including tethering the camera to carefully analyze each frame.  I am confident that I now have a camera that is well tuned for focus.

Throughout this exercise I most definitely felt like the camera was finding the focus point faster than before and locking on more quickly without the back and forth hunting that I was used to previously.  You point the camera, push the focus button (I use back-button focus) and the lens drives there and locks on in a much more affirmative manner than it did before.  As the light got dimmer in the afternoon, I feel I was able to obtain reliable AF about 10 minutes later or a bit darker than before (the sun sets quickly in southern Arizona).  So overall I do feel like the new AF system was accurately represented by Phase.  Whether it's worth it to you or not depends largely on what and how you shoot and under what lighting conditions.  I shoot a lot in low light at dawn or dusk so I find the lower Ev capability and the more affirmative focus lock to be a very positive change.

Added later: One thing I forgot to mention - I have a featureless brown painted block wall about 75 feet from my back porch - just a tiny bit of texture.  The old AF system was not able to focus on it, or at best it hunted around for a long time.  The new AF has no problem with it.  It's with that that I found the most noticeable difference.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 06:47:50 am by E.J. Peiker »
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henrikfoto

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2017, 03:28:19 pm »

I finally got my XF back today.  It took quite a bit longer than anticipated as Phase found a number of things that needed to be upgraded and repaired to make my camera current which required a wait for parts.  All of this was included in the price of the HAP2 upgrade.

I have spent the afternoon playing around with it.  I started by focus trimming all of my lenses and they all changed substantially from their previous value.  In my case, on average the shift was about 75 points in the positive direction from what they were before.  I spent a lot of time doing this including tethering the camera to carefully analyze each frame.  I am confident that I now have a camera that is well tuned for focus.

Throughout this exercise I most definitely felt like the camera was finding the focus point faster than before and locking on more quickly without the back and forth hunting that I was used to previously.  You point the camera, push the focus button (I use back-button focus) and the lens drives there and locks on in a much more affirmative manner than it did before.  As the light got dimmer in the afternoon, I feel I was able to obtain reliable AF about 10 minutes later or a bit darker than before (the sun sets quickly in southern Arizona).  So overall I do feel like the new AF system was accurately represented by Phase.  Whether it's worth it to you or not depends largely on what and how you shoot and under what lighting conditions.  I shoot a lot in low light at dawn or dusk so I find the lower Ev capability and the more affirmative focus lock to be a very positive change.

Added later: One thing I forgot to mention - I have a featureless brown painted block wall about 75 feet from my back porch - just a tiny bit of texture.  The old AF system was not able to focus on it, or at best it hunted around for a long time.  The new AF has no problem with it.  It's with that that I found the most noticeable difference.


Thanks a lot! This is very positive information!
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The View

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Re: Phase one XF upgrade - is it worth the money?
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2017, 05:00:06 pm »

I don't feel having just one focus point is such a problem.

With shallow depth of field I want to decide where the most important area is, not a honeycomb that decides for me (and may pick the tip of the nose)

I think a multi-point is OK for smaller sensors with their huge depth of field.

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