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Author Topic: certificate of authenticity  (Read 6278 times)

rogan

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certificate of authenticity
« on: October 27, 2017, 01:16:27 pm »

Anyone have any leads on a reference on how to write one of these? Searched online and they are all over the place. Thanks
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NAwlins_Contrarian

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2017, 01:27:42 pm »

What is being certified as authentic? By whom? An authentic what?

Presumably (based on the forum) you're trying to come up with something you can put on your prints so that potential buyers will know that they're really yours, and not copies or forgeries. For that, IMO what is said is far less important than that something is affixed or included that cannot practicably be copied, forged, or transferred. At the lower end, maybe have your name or logo made into a metal embosser, when you can use to create a patter in the border outside the printed area. You could also register a copyright on the name / logo / pattern. Stepping up from that, maybe you could have your name or logo made into holograms that could be put on a thin film and then affixed to the paper in some way that they could not be readily removed from the paper and transferred to other paper.

You could also do things like serial-number prints, keep records of to whom each serial number was sold, and offer to track subsequent transfers in a database, so that you could a chain of ownership / custody to anyone with questions.

As for what to say? If you want text in addition to your or your business's name and/or logo, how about something simple like, 'I certify that this is a Rogues Gallery pigment print of a Jonathan Rogue original photograph,' and then just sign it? You could print that on it, get the embosser (or even a rubber stamp, if you can find good enough ink), or whatever--and then sign it with a pencil or archival pen.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2017, 03:13:34 pm »

Anyone have any leads on a reference on how to write one of these? Searched online and they are all over the place. Thanks
I think Ansel Adams just signed his prints and that was all the authenticity one needed.  Do you need anything more than that?  If so, why?
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2017, 03:15:27 pm »

There was something on the news here recently about people producing artwork on vellum and keeping a small piece of the stuff so that DNA analysis could later prove the work was genuine. Overkill, perhaps.

Jeremy
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2017, 03:17:38 pm »

There was something on the news here recently about people producing artwork on vellum and keeping a small piece of the stuff so that DNA analysis could later prove the work was genuine. Overkill, perhaps.

Jeremy
Going along this line, blue a plucked hair (if you have one) to the photo for surefire identification. ;D
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rdonson

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2017, 03:25:35 pm »

We should all be so lucky as to have someone worried about the authenticity of our prints.   :D
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Ron

John Nollendorfs

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2017, 03:33:32 pm »

I think the OP is talking about a certificate that the print is done with fade resistant ink and quality paper, thus will last a minimum length of time without apparent fading. A warranty of sorts?

John
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2017, 04:37:38 pm »

I always sent along a sheet of paper that has the title of the print, where it was taken, the date, the paper it is printed on, the printer and ink set (Epson 3880 with pigment inks) and a brief description on how to frame it (use archival materials).  If one is offering limited edition prints (I'm not so presumptuous to even offer those) these can be signed on the print which is what is done with some other types of art work such as lithographs or an accompanying document such as the one I sent along.  I believe Hahnemuhle offers a certificate of authenticity:  https://www.hahnemuehle.com/en/digital-fineart/certificate-of-authenticity.html  but that's the only one I've ever come across.
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Ferp

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2017, 08:02:08 pm »

A CoA is fairly standard in the art world, especially for limited edition prints.  You could ask they same question about why they bother?  The ones that I've seen don't mention the print's archival properties.  I think they're mostly done to document the precise conditions of the limited edition, since there are often a number of artist's proofs as well in circulation.  Perhaps also the date that the print was made, since not all prints in an edition are necessarily produced at the same time. 

I've occasionally done limited editions, and given the expectations created by print makers, I generally offer a CoA in such circumstances.  In the case of photo prints, it can be helpful to document the extent of the limitation, as photographers generally reserve the rights to reproduction of the image in other forms, sizes etc.  I'd also include the sort of information that Alan indicated.  Why bother?  Partly expectations and partly to cover myself when other reproductions are around.

I don't like limited editions either, but I sense that there's a lot of pressure in the photo-art market to produce them.  I overheard a conversation in a gallery recently, in which a prominent member of the local photo-art community said that she had always wanted to buy a print by the photographer whose exhibition they were viewing, and now that he/she had produced a limited edition, she would.  I was a little stunned, and had to restrain myself from asking why?  If you like a photo print and want to support the artist, why not just buy it?  Do you really think that the photographer is going to sell out the edition and by limiting it you're getting something more valuable?  That's most unlikely, unless the size of the edition of very small or the photographer very famous, or a great self-marketer (e.g. Peter Lik).  It's most unlikely that you'd get anything like you're money back were you to try and sell your print in the secondary market, except in the case of very famous prints / photographers.  End of rant.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2017, 06:54:05 am »

Anyone have any leads on a reference on how to write one of these? Searched online and they are all over the place. Thanks

If it is about counterfeit there are all kinds of high tech solutions now. I suggest that the artist should make a fingerprint using his own blood at the back of the print. A bit of protection spray over it or a piece of tape. One of the print shop owner can be added to it and to make it more complicated the last can use the artist's blood for his fingerprint and the other way around. By the time the prints fetch big money a DNA test will be the least expensive method to verify the origin of the print. No need for expensive third solutions.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

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March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

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32BT

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2017, 09:12:38 am »

By the time the prints fetch big money a DNA test will be the least expensive method to verify the origin of the print. No need for expensive third solutions.

I just spit on my prints. Unfortunately, so do all potential customers...  >8-(
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~ O ~
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patjoja

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2017, 02:16:31 am »

Anyone have any leads on a reference on how to write one of these? Searched online and they are all over the place. Thanks

I created a COA I send out with my framed prints.  It's pretty simple and contains a thumbnail of the print, when, where, and how the image was taken and then the kind of paper and the inksets used to print it, etc.  I make a brief statement about the archival quality of the materials and prints.  I then sign and date them with the limited edition number.  I also have a rubber stamp 'seal' which is pressed onto the COA.

I'm okay with making limited edition prints as it helps me keep track of how many prints I've made.  I don't think any of my prints will be sold at auction or to an art gallery so I'm not worrying much about that.  But, many of the art shows on the art circuit require that photographers sell limited editions, so I do.

Patrick
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GrahamBy

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2017, 12:13:32 pm »

I just spit on my prints. Unfortunately, so do all potential customers...  >8-(

Literally laughing out loud :D
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Paul Roark

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2017, 10:19:36 am »

In my view "certificate of authenticity" is coming from the same mindset as "giclee."  It's attempting to hide the reality that the buyer is purchasing a copy as opposed to the original painting.  All photos are prints, so the situation is different for us.  I usually have a "print information" paper on the back of my framed prints or in the shrink wrap with those that are sold without a frame.  It simply tells the purchaser the title, location, limit or not and definition of the limit (close to another popular fraud in the art business), and other potentially useful information, such as inkset (which is of interest to some as I mix my own carbon B&W inks).

The reality is, however, that the vast majority of people who buy my prints are simply interested in the image.  None of the other information or limits matter.

FWIW,

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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Peter McLennan

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2017, 11:32:58 am »

The reality is, however, that the vast majority of people who buy my prints are simply interested in the image.  None of the other information or limits matter.

Exactly. And hopefully the most satisfying reason for purchase for both the photographer and the customer.

This is the same strategy as the telcos use to cause your data allotment to evaporate each month:  "Artificial Scarcity"
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Wayne Fox

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2017, 12:36:27 pm »

In my view "certificate of authenticity" is coming from the same mindset as "giclee."  It's attempting to hide the reality that the buyer is purchasing a copy as opposed to the original painting.
The concept of limited edition most likely evolved at time when the standard reproduction for artists was with lithography, which by nature can be produced as "editions" since you typically had to print at least 1000 at a time. Despite the fact it is an artificial limit, in todays gallery and art markets the concept of limited editions still remains as a means to imply additional value.  Whether we agree with that or not, it's a very common practice and there are many very successful photographers and artists who use the concept.  Many art shows require the work to be limited edition, this isn't just a requirement for photographers but for all artists.

The term giclee originated as a way to distinguish high quality inkjet prints from standard consumer grade inkjet prints back in a time when there was indeed a substantial difference between the two. The technology used to produce a "giclee" was far different than a typical inkjet printer at the time.  The term stuck and despite the fact it doesn't seem to have much relevance today,  it is still widely used throughout the art world as a way to communicate the print is not a lithograph, and is produced from a high end/better than consumer grade device.

To me the term giclee has always been a little odd, but I'll admit when marketing or selling ones work the term does have some use in that it still is interpreted to mean a professional or higher in quality inkjet print.  There are many buyers out there that have come across this term and understand it. Those that haven't find the definition somewhat meaningful.  Despite how much I dislike the term, I've given up trying to explain to customers that a giclee is a marketing word for inkjet print (which to most people they relate to the little printer they have in their house). It's easier just to use the term, and offer a brief explanation if necessary.

Regarding COA's, I think it's pretty much what you want to do.  Offering information about the technology used is quite common, and if the work is limited, a concise unambiguous statement regarding the limit. The key is that you stick to what you say.  If you place a limit on prints from an image, you need to state what the limit is and if there are any exceptions to the limit.  For example when you say limit of 10, does that mean 10 in that size, or 10 in all sizes.  While a few major court cases have failed to rule for buyers in recent years, to me there is some personal integrity involved.
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deanwork

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2017, 06:47:02 pm »


Great idea Ernst . I'm going to stamp all my work with blood from now on. Fingerprint in blood. I'm bonified.

The "certificate crap does sound a lot like the giclee certification that was around 15 years ago.

It's Epson that started all this nonsense with pigment prints  many years ago and now Hahnemühle is doing it. We have a Hahnemühle certified giclee lab in town that claims they are one of " only a few in the country". I'm serious they say one of about 7 🙂 Now that bonified.

But what we really have is a COA lab that is using OBA Hahnemühle media. But , he'll, it's authentic. And if you are really loyal they might even give you a plastic gold ribbon stamp with their corporate logo on it. 




If it is about counterfeit there are all kinds of high tech solutions now. I suggest that the artist should make a fingerprint using his own blood at the back of the print. A bit of protection spray over it or a piece of tape. One of the print shop owner can be added to it and to make it more complicated the last can use the artist's blood for his fingerprint and the other way around. By the time the prints fetch big money a DNA test will be the least expensive method to verify the origin of the print. No need for expensive third solutions.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Ferp

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2017, 06:52:06 pm »

Despite the fact it is an artificial limit, in todays gallery and art markets the concept of limited editions still remains as a means to imply additional value.  ... Many art shows require the work to be limited edition, this isn't just a requirement for photographers but for all artists.

It seems to be taken as a sign that you're 'serious', which I find disappointing.  Brooks Jensen has written about the folly of this approach for most photography, but if you try and run his arguments to the wider art community, they look at you like you're from Mars.

If you place a limit on prints from an image, you need to state what the limit is and if there are any exceptions to the limit.  For example when you say limit of 10, does that mean 10 in that size, or 10 in all sizes.

Precisely.  This is where photography differs from say print making (i.e. from a plate).  The concept of a limited edition of a photo is more complex, and if you offer one you need to be very clear.
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enduser

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2017, 08:08:33 pm »

Of the thousands of prints I've made and sold of my wife's art, not one buyer was interested about how they were made. As someone above noted, if you start to explain, their eyes wander off, glaze over a bit and they quickly say thank you and go.
That probably says we sell to a pretty unsophisticated market but it meant that I didn't need a certificate of any sort.  The only extra paper was when a few wanted a receipt for a business purchase.
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GrahamBy

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Re: certificate of authenticity
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2017, 08:35:26 am »

That probably says we sell to a pretty unsophisticated market but it meant that I didn't need a certificate of any sort.

I think in the case of the art-business world, the lunatics are clearly running the asylum... so "sophisticated" can have completely different meaning from the view of tradition vs reality. However if you want the money, you give the buyer what s/he wants, no?

(BTW, "giclée" in French just means "squirted". My central heating furnace has a gicleur, as do automotive carburetors, and apparently it has a certain usage in pornography. If that helps you to giggle at the whole thing :) )
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 08:39:47 am by GrahamBy »
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