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Author Topic: Climate Change: Science and Issues  (Read 122048 times)

Peter McLennan

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #380 on: December 09, 2017, 11:34:10 am »

"Fact has a liberal bias"
attribution unknown
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #381 on: December 09, 2017, 03:00:21 pm »

More fake news using some old dying polar bear to blame climate change.  The continuously biased presentations of these things are what convinces deniers that it's a hoax.  As long as false presentations are done about the real truth, the whole science of climate change becomes suspect.  They have to stop twisting the reality of these things to fit their preconceived agenda.  People know when they're being had.
https://www.livescience.com/61151-starving-polar-bear-captured-on-video.html

Yes, it's unfortunate when sites that purport to represent science make bald emotional appeals. (I know nothing about that web site.) Wether they intend it as propaganda or wether they're just mis-guided is beside the point. And whether or not you are insulted by these displays is also equally beside the point. None of these aspects have anything to do with the underlying science. It's still all there for people to see and read.

If you don't like bleeding heart videos of polar bears, don't watch them. I don't. But it is silly to use them as a proxy for denigrating climate science.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #382 on: December 11, 2017, 07:15:54 pm »

Yes, it's unfortunate when sites that purport to represent science make bald emotional appeals. (I know nothing about that web site.) Wether they intend it as propaganda or wether they're just mis-guided is beside the point. And whether or not you are insulted by these displays is also equally beside the point. None of these aspects have anything to do with the underlying science. It's still all there for people to see and read.

If you don't like bleeding heart videos of polar bears, don't watch them. I don't. But it is silly to use them as a proxy for denigrating climate science.
The problem, Bob, is that it's hard for people to separate the emotional appeal of climate change from the facts about it.  If someone is shaking your hand with one hand while their other is in your pocket fiddling with you wallet, it;s hard to be convinced they're being honest about the hand shake.  I've been shopping for a car recently with my wife.  When we leave the dealerships, I ask my wife if she feels as dirty as I do having got a load of garbage from the salesmen who just aren't believable. 

How does the average guy separate the truth from the hype? 

I was reading today how  50 world leaders (less Trump) are getting together regarding Paris plans for the future.  Meanwhile China, one of them, continues to pollute and increase CO2 around the world with their coal-fired electric plants and other carbon pollution construction.  So China grows in wealth as CO2 and global warming intensifies, all while Paris gives them a pass until 2030. 
"Beijing’s $900 billion “belt and road” initiative is building infrastructure across countries with three times China’s population, he noted. “If nothing is done… their emissions could be three times China’s emissions.”
http://www.climatechangenews.com/2017/12/11/belt-road-countries-emit-triple-chinas-carbon-warns-official/

Alan Klein

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #383 on: December 11, 2017, 11:19:19 pm »

A recent article how well polar bears are doing despite the constant negative barrage of fake news how climate change is destroying the species.
https://polarbearscience.com/2017/11/06/twenty-reasons-not-to-worry-about-polar-bears-the-2017-update/

LesPalenik

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #384 on: December 12, 2017, 01:01:24 am »

Here in Canada, the real problems are all the insects and other pests which used to freeze up in the winter. In the last few winters, their survival rates got drastically higher and that  spoils all the fun for the summer photography and hiking in the greater outdoors. Not counting more damage to the crops and forests.

I haven't seen any migrating polar bears in southern Ontario yet, but a few years ago, a pack of timber wolves took advantage of a rarely formed ice bridge at the northern shore of Lake Superior, to the Michipicoten Island that was populated by woodland caribou. Needless to say, the wolves have killed most of the caribous on the island, and now The Ministry of Natural Resources instead of killing the killers made the politically correct decision to evacuate the remaining caribous to another island. Needless to say, that without any deer on the island the wolves will perish anyway.

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ontario-government-to-move-caribou-facing-wolf-attacks-off-island 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #385 on: December 12, 2017, 01:58:33 am »

Les, Lyme disease in America has become a scourge due to warmer winters as deer ticks do better.  Of course deer the deer ticks feed off of are doing better in winters too accounting for more ticks.  Deer hunters have more venison to eat which saves cows from predation. :)   We humans might not like the mosquitoes or ticks.  But they are delicious to some species which are probably growing in population as well.  Global warming is good for the environment and growth of species populations.  Al Gore should be pleased. 

pegelli

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #386 on: December 12, 2017, 05:27:28 am »

I was reading today how  50 world leaders (less Trump) are getting together regarding Paris plans for the future.  Meanwhile China, one of them, continues to pollute and increase CO2 around the world with their coal-fired electric plants and other carbon pollution construction.  So China grows in wealth as CO2 and global warming intensifies, all while Paris gives them a pass until 2030. 
"Beijing’s $900 billion “belt and road” initiative is building infrastructure across countries with three times China’s population, he noted. “If nothing is done… their emissions could be three times China’s emissions.”
http://www.climatechangenews.com/2017/12/11/belt-road-countries-emit-triple-chinas-carbon-warns-official/

Alan:
- if you're backing out of the agreement you give up your seat at the table, very simple, get over it.
- China is not getting a pass under the Paris agreement
- The article you quoted is about what is being done to avoid the alarmist doomsday picture you're painting about growth in the "belt and road" area. Your selective quoting is misleading.
- As long as the average US citizen emits twice the CO2 of most of the other people in the world I think it would be better if they did more to reduce instead of pointing fingers at others.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #387 on: December 12, 2017, 05:40:43 am »

Les, Lyme disease in America has become a scourge due to warmer winters as deer ticks do better.  Of course deer the deer ticks feed off of are doing better in winters too accounting for more ticks.  Deer hunters have more venison to eat which saves cows from predation. :)   We humans might not like the mosquitoes or ticks.  But they are delicious to some species which are probably growing in population as well.  Global warming is good for the environment and growth of species populations.  Al Gore should be pleased.

Alan, the warm winters are not necessarily better for everything.  :(
For one thing, it's a disaster for the Canadian outdoor ice rinks. For example, in Ottawa, every winter the Rideau canal in the middle of the city freezes and opens for skating. As a point of interest, the Rideau Canal Skateway is the largest naturally frozen ice rink in the world. However, last winter the skateway was opened only for 18 days, the shortest season on record. Bad for skaters and for the local business. The season is simply too short for bringing in the polar bears from further up north.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/canal-ncc-short-season-1.3463948
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #388 on: December 12, 2017, 08:40:29 am »

The problem, Bob, is that it's hard for people to separate the emotional appeal of climate change from the facts about it.  If someone is shaking your hand with one hand while their other is in your pocket fiddling with you wallet, it;s hard to be convinced they're being honest about the hand shake.  I've been shopping for a car recently with my wife.  When we leave the dealerships, I ask my wife if she feels as dirty as I do having got a load of garbage from the salesmen who just aren't believable. 

How does the average guy separate the truth from the hype? 

I disagree that it's difficult to separate emotional appeals from real science. Lots of people do it every day. If you're getting your science from sound bites on the local news from someone with too much hair and big teeth, you're getting emotion, not science. :)

Your question about where to get the truth beggars belief. There are thousands of scientists working on it and publishing it every day. And there are many legit publications that disseminate the info. Before the political parties in your country and mine decided to politicize science, they used to have science advisors at the highest levels. When those folks told people in power things they didn't want to hear, they were eliminated. That should worry everyone. The question is, why doesn't it?
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #389 on: December 12, 2017, 08:56:27 am »

Les, Lyme disease in America has become a scourge due to warmer winters as deer ticks do better.  Of course deer the deer ticks feed off of are doing better in winters too accounting for more ticks.  Deer hunters have more venison to eat which saves cows from predation. :)   We humans might not like the mosquitoes or ticks.  But they are delicious to some species which are probably growing in population as well.  Global warming is good for the environment and growth of species populations.  Al Gore should be pleased.
As one who has been bitten by a Lyme tick (a quick dose of 400mg of doxycycline was prophylactic against me getting the disease), I can attest to the problem.  However, it's not necessarily a function of global warming but of deer populations grossly out of control.  My suburban region of Washington DC has deer all over the place and efforts to cull the population have been resisted by all the animal lovers.  I have given up on gardening as the deer just come in and eat to their content (along with the rabbits who are now invasive and also a host to Lyme ticks).
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Alan Klein

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #390 on: December 12, 2017, 09:49:57 am »

As one who has been bitten by a Lyme tick (a quick dose of 400mg of doxycycline was prophylactic against me getting the disease), I can attest to the problem.  However, it's not necessarily a function of global warming but of deer populations grossly out of control.  My suburban region of Washington DC has deer all over the place and efforts to cull the population have been resisted by all the animal lovers.  I have given up on gardening as the deer just come in and eat to their content (along with the rabbits who are now invasive and also a host to Lyme ticks).
And deer are dangerous to drivers.  I nearly hit one a couple of days ago when it trotted out across the road thirty feet in front of me.  Since moving here 4 years ago, there's probably been 8-10 times that's happened.  One of these days my luck is going to run out.  People get killed and it really messes up your auto, thousands in damages to repair.  Where ever you drive around here in New Jersey there are carcasses of dead deer hit by cars. Who needs a gun? Turkey vultures fill the skies looking for road kill.  It's like Africa. :)  This is rutting season when the dumb, horny bucks are busy chasing the girls oblivious to everything.    I've had Lyme disease too and had the antibiotic treatment.  My dog almost died from it.  I don't go into the woods to hike or shoot pictures as much anymore because of it. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #391 on: December 12, 2017, 11:35:56 am »

Hundreds of closed coal mine shafts in previously heavily mined Ruhr area in Germany are in danger of collapsing and creating very large sink holes.

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/bergbau-rund-2500-verlassene-schaechte-in-nrw-a-1182805.html
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #392 on: December 12, 2017, 12:28:40 pm »

And the sky is falling too!!!!!
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LesPalenik

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #393 on: December 12, 2017, 01:12:54 pm »

It is not the sky, just frozen moisture from the clouds. We got about 10cm last night.
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Ray

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #394 on: December 12, 2017, 07:03:36 pm »

I disagree that it's difficult to separate emotional appeals from real science. Lots of people do it every day. If you're getting your science from sound bites on the local news from someone with too much hair and big teeth, you're getting emotion, not science. :)

Your question about where to get the truth beggars belief. There are thousands of scientists working on it and publishing it every day. And there are many legit publications that disseminate the info. Before the political parties in your country and mine decided to politicize science, they used to have science advisors at the highest levels. When those folks told people in power things they didn't want to hear, they were eliminated. That should worry everyone. The question is, why doesn't it?

Good points, Robert. Those who get their science from sound bites on the local news, or even from lengthier documentary programs which include interviews of scientists addressing the dangers of rising CO2 levels, will tend to accept that rising CO2 levels pose a serious threat to the welfare of the planet and the future of humanity.

However, those who have an inquiring mind and some understanding of the principles of the the scientific method, and who have the time to search for relevant facts which are never mentioned, even during lengthy interviews of climate scientists on the media, might begin to understand how biased the presentation of the case for 'CO2 Alarmism', in the media, really is.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #395 on: December 13, 2017, 10:24:35 am »

However, those who have an inquiring mind and some understanding of the principles of the the scientific method, and who have the time to search for relevant facts which are never mentioned, even during lengthy interviews of climate scientists on the media, might begin to understand how biased the presentation of the case for 'CO2 Alarmism', in the media, really is.
I think this statement is misleading.  Climate change is multi-factorial and subject to a number of inputs and outputs.  I would agree that focusing on one aspect of climate change is inappropriate based on our current knowledge.  The affect of CO2 on atmospheric warming is proven by science and efforts to control it along with methane emissions is necessary.
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Ray

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #396 on: December 13, 2017, 07:43:50 pm »

I think this statement is misleading.  Climate change is multi-factorial and subject to a number of inputs and outputs.  I would agree that focusing on one aspect of climate change is inappropriate based on our current knowledge.  The affect of CO2 on atmospheric warming is proven by science and efforts to control it along with methane emissions is necessary.

Alan,
I definitely agree that climate change is multi-factorial and also enormously complex with so many positive and negative feedbacks which, fortunately, tend to create a balance.

The point I was making in my previous post is that the news media tends to focus only on the negative aspects of CO2 and doesn't even try to educate the listener about basic and fundamental qualities related to whatever aspect of climate change is being mentioned.

A few examples spring to mind but I'll refer to just one, otherwise the post would be very long.  ;)

(1) CO2 is a pollutant. Rarely is it mentioned that CO2 is essential for all life and that most plants thrive in elevated levels of CO2, especially when they are water-stressed.

There are real problems resulting from deforestation for agricultural purposes, which must affect the climate to some degree, but fortunately the CO2 we emit from the burning of fossil fuels at least helps the remaining forests to flourish, as well as most of the food crops we grow.

Of course, we don't notice such effects because CO2 levels have been rising so gradually over the past 150 years, at an average rate of less than 1 part per million per year. One wouldn't expect a farmer to notice, after, say, 10 or 20 years of farming a particular crop, that the same crop was growing more vigorously due to the very small increases in CO2 during that 10 or 20 year period. Even if the period were much longer, say 50 or 60 years, it would be assumed that any increase in the growth of a particular crop would be due to improved farming techniques and better application of fertilizers, water, pesticides and weed control.

However, imagine a scenario in which we could funnel CO2 into outer space at a very high rate, so that CO2 levels were reduced from the current 406 ppm to pre-industrial levels of 285 ppm within a year or so. Then the farmers would notice a significant reduction in crop yields, despite applying the same amount of water and fertilizers.

Of course, if the farmers were forewarned that CO2 levels would be drastically reduced during the next growing season, they might be able compensate for the effects of reduced CO2 levels by applying more water and fertilizers to their crops. That would raise the cost of food, which might not be a problem in wealthy, developed countries, but could be a serious problem for many people in poor, undeveloped countries, and the poor farmers in those countries who already struggle to grow sufficient food with insufficient fertilizers and water supplies.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #397 on: December 17, 2017, 12:00:48 pm »

I think this statement is misleading.  Climate change is multi-factorial and subject to a number of inputs and outputs.  I would agree that focusing on one aspect of climate change is inappropriate based on our current knowledge.  The affect of CO2 on atmospheric warming is proven by science and efforts to control it along with methane emissions is necessary.
It's getting up to 59 degrees F next Saturday here in New Jersey, about 17 degrees higher than average.  My wife thinks it's great, the warmer weather that is.  Who needs Florida?  Warming is good.  A lot of older people especially die in colder weather.  Warming trend is reducing mortality and extending people's lives.   

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #398 on: December 17, 2017, 12:35:14 pm »

It's getting up to 59 degrees F next Saturday here in New Jersey, about 17 degrees higher than average.  My wife thinks it's great, the warmer weather that is.  Who needs Florida?  Warming is good.  A lot of older people especially die in colder weather.  Warming trend is reducing mortality and extending people's lives.   

Not seeing a smiley at the end of this I can only assume that you were serious, but I hope I'm wrong.

First of all, weather is not climate. Weather is not climate. Weather is not climate. Should I repeat it again in larger font?

Second, when all the tropical insects and diseases invade New Jersey, and all the dairy cows in Wisconsin die from the heat, and Atlanta and Texas become deserts, you might not be so grateful for the warm weather. :)



« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 01:15:59 pm by Alan Goldhammer »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Climate Change: Science and Issues
« Reply #399 on: December 17, 2017, 01:22:04 pm »

(1) CO2 is a pollutant. Rarely is it mentioned that CO2 is essential for all life and that most plants thrive in elevated levels of CO2, especially when they are water-stressed.


And it's also one of the negative factors in e.g. the current California wildfires. Lots of plant biomass from the spring is now withering and thus releasing previously stored CO2 again, and it is additionally providing an excellent fuel source for wildfires.

BTW, we're discussing the excess CO2 production that can be considered as a pollutant, not the CO2 that's part of the natural cycles.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 08:57:32 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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