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Author Topic: SOS: The Ultimate Compromize  (Read 5862 times)

svein-frode

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SOS: The Ultimate Compromize
« on: September 13, 2006, 05:58:36 am »

I'm becoming exhausted from the search, so my friends, can you answer the following: Is there such a thing as a pocket sized digital camera with good optics, good sensor, good 400 ISO performance, fast autofocus, and manual controls. I want a digital Leica replacement. Not for the brand, image quality or durability, but for its stealth capabilities to use it for street photography etc. and digital workflow (I don't have the time to develop, edit and scan 35mm film anymore).

Anyone?
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michael

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« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2006, 07:51:17 am »

Pocket sized – maybe not. Depends on the size of your pocket. Otherwise, wait till Friday.  

Michael
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svein-frode

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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2006, 09:27:06 am »

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Tim Gray

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« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2006, 09:34:15 am »

If stealth and reasonable ISO 400 are your basic requirements, and the "pocket" requirement is a bit loose, then consider the Sony R1.  The difference in "stealthyness" in being able to shoot from the waist with an articulated screen vs pointing a camera at your subject at eye level is significant.
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svein-frode

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« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2006, 09:43:12 am »

Quote
If stealth and reasonable ISO 400 are your basic requirements, and the "pocket" requirement is a bit loose, then consider the Sony R1.  The difference in "stealthyness" in being able to shoot from the waist with an articulated screen vs pointing a camera at your subject at eye level is significant.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76208\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have owned the 505, 717 and 828 - but they are too big. Most places I go with 'em people will stop and stare... But more importantly I want a slimmer camera with no big lens sticking out and weight that isn't really felt around your neck.

Now I'll just have to wait for the M8 reviews, even though I guess Leica will price it too high. I don't "give" away my money to a company mainly making camera for collectors and brandwashed wannabe photographers.
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Pete JF

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« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2006, 10:59:52 am »

yeah, waiting for the same thing. Im a little suspect though because Im having a great deal of difficulty thinking about buying a camera that I wont keep for more than 3 years, any camera really.

Something great about buying a camera and using it for a long time, especially a leica. It just dont make a damn bit of sense to me and I cant see it any other way with a digi leica, a digi anything.  

I wonder if they could plan these camera bodies so that they could update the senors as the technology moves forward. seems like such a waste of everything (resources, money, energy) to build a nice body around a sensor that is headed straight for obsolete before you can wear out a pair of blue jeans.
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francois

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« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2006, 11:25:19 am »

Quote
Oh well, the cat's out of the bag:

http://www.macandphoto.com/2006/09/prise_en_main_d.html#more
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French mag Chasseur d'image (n°287 - October 2006) has a short article with photos. Expected price is €4200 and availability  October 2006. Two new lenses: Tri-Elmar 16-18-21 mm f/4 (€3195 - December 2006) and Elmarit-M28 f/2.8 Asph (€1395 - October 2006).
« Last Edit: September 13, 2006, 11:26:07 am by francois »
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Lisa Nikodym

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SOS: The Ultimate Compromize
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2006, 12:16:10 pm »

The Fujifilm F30 sounds like it might fulfill your requirements.  I have one, and my only complaints are that it doesn't do RAW and doesn't have histograms.  I've made enlargements up to 12"x18" with it that look very good, and it has considerably less noise than any other camera its size (according to dpreview; check out their review of it).  And yes, it's truly pocket-sized, at only 185 grams and 93x57x28 mm.  Maybe not as good image quality as the Leica, but probably quite a bit smaller if that's important to you.

Lisa
« Last Edit: September 13, 2006, 12:23:31 pm by nniko »
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Dale_Cotton

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« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2006, 01:47:29 pm »

While a rangefinder may be "stealthy" compared to a typical SLR, and I strongly suspect that any digital compact trumps anything you have to hold up to your eye to compose with. I can traipse the boardwalk or a city street, holding my LX1 out at arm's length, all day long without collecting a stare - as long as I'm using it, I'm disguised as a tourist.

Quote
Is there such a thing as a pocket sized digital camera with good optics, good sensor, good 400 ISO performance, fast autofocus, and manual controls.
Short answer: no. There is no digital compact that isn't a study in compromises, nor is there likely to be such a thing in the foreseeable future - two microns is not a lot of space to cram a pixel into. The question is not whether you have to sacrifice a feature you can't live without, but just how many such features you stand to lose. Exhausted from your search? I understand a number of photographers determined to find the ultimate pocket cam were last seen in the company of Vandervecken, Ponce de Leon, Don Quixote, and the Wandering Jew...

FWIW, my take on the LX2 (based on LX1 experience plus LX2 specs & image samples), which you've probably ruled out already, but just in case:

pocket-sized - check (pants or jacket, not shirt)
good optics - check (superb would be a better descriptor)
good sensor - not for noiseophobes
good 400 ISO - not for noiseophobes
fast autofocus - good for a compact (better than some dSLRs?)
manual controls - check (best I've ever seen on a compact)

and may I add?

LCD quality - is wowing early adopters
Storage - uses good ol' SD and SDHC
Battery - not best, not worst
Addictiveness - extreme (I have 3 SLRs collecting dust)

More on IQ: The recent dpreview.com review of the FZ50 should give you a good idea what the LX2's IQ is like. Same Venus III LSI; very likely same imager except aspect ratio. Be careful to distinguish between JPEG and RAW results. There's long been an affinity between gritty b&w film grain and street photography. One can shoot RAW, then apply a fairly aggressive chroma NR, leaving film-grain-like luminance noise with minimal loss of detail.

More on focus: Some have reported that using image stabilization increases the camera's shutter lag. Zone focusing is a joy - just prefocus on something at about the distance you expect to need, then flick a switch on the lens barrel from auto to manual focus or - better - press the configurable AF/AE lock button. Combine that with the oceanic DOF of focal lengths that range from 6 to 25, and you've got something.

One downside of the LX1/2 as a pocket cam is that it's fairly pokey to start up, given that the lens cap has to come off for best results and given the leisurely pace at which the zoom unfurls. I'd say 2 or 3 secs before you can get off your first shot. That's pretty painful if you've just spotted a UFO or Yeti.

BTW - Is the M8 the world's first DNG raw camera?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2006, 01:55:30 pm by Dale Cotton »
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svein-frode

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« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2006, 03:51:05 am »

Thanks a lot Dale!

The LX2 has been on my mind and I'll be checking it out as soon as possible. It's that kind of camera I'm interested in. For street photography and candids I'm not as worried about resolution etc. as with landscapes. I don't cear about a little fuzz in the images, or slight softness for that matter.
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JMCP

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« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2006, 02:36:19 am »

Hi,

it might be worth having a look at one of the Pentax DSLR's fitted with a pancake lense, it does make a pretty small and easily carryable solution.


Cheers John
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David Mantripp

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« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2006, 05:46:56 pm »

I use the LX1 a lot.  It is a nice camera, but near-useless in bright daylight: the LCD is effectively invisible. I would not classify it as a stealth camera - anything you have to hold at arms length and squint at is about as stealthy as a Harley Davidson.


You could try the Ricoh GR-D, with the viewfinder accessory, although even that is fairly useless since there is no data display in the VF, and it has some serious issues with RAW shooting.

Of course, you could consider the Olympus E-400.....
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Dale_Cotton

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« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2006, 07:01:06 pm »

DRM writes:
Quote
I use the LX1 a lot. It is a nice camera, but near-useless in bright daylight: the LCD is effectively invisible. I would not classify it as a stealth camera - anything you have to hold at arms length and squint at is about as stealthy as a Harley Davidson.
David: I felt your post on the Camera & Art thread was dynamite but I do want to respond to the above.

I understand why you say the LX1's LCD (like all compact's I've tried) is near-useless in bright daylight (if the glare is coming from behind you); but I think it's possible to get over that if one is doing something like street photography. For landscape and tripod work of course you would want a different camera. I'm by no means a seasoned pro at street-style work, but I'm finding that it works for me if I compose without the camera, then check the LCD only enough to get the framing where I want it. IOW, I only need to confirm that a certain building or that interesting Walter Mitty character is at the edge of the frame.

Given that it's a single button press to pop the LCD into overdrive brightness and back, I haven't yet had to work in glare that was so overwhelming I couldn't see enough to frame my shot. I call this Jedi photography (but then we all know I'm mentally certifiable and a hopeless romantic to boot - yet where else does one get to view the world through genuinely alien eyes? ;). Sure I'd rather be peering into an SLR or RF finder, but not enough so to sacrifice what I think of as the stealth advantage of a compact digicam. Another frustration of a glared-out LCD is the difficulty getting the exposure read-outs; but again when you're doing street-style you don't usually have the luxury of time to work out an ideal exposure.

Now as to the stealth issue; I suspect we've been reading different sets of spy fiction. For me stealth isn't so much about being literally invisible but about blending in with the crowd. Again, when I use a compact camera, everyone knows I'm there ... but they aren't concerned about me - because they assume I'm taking pictures of this big building or that touristy landmark and not specifically of them.

Nevertheless, your objections are important, because I'm sure that for the majority of readers of this thread the glare-on-LCD issue is going to be a show-stopper - or at least a severe irritant - and my weird take on stealth is not going to apply.
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