Which OBA free, smooth paper?

[Hening Bettermann]

Hi!
I am looking for an OBA free paper, smooth for sharpness, with high dmax, so glossy, but not super glossy so as to avoid excess reflections. I have earlier used Epson Premium Glossy, the degree of gloss seems right, but it has OBAs.

As far as I could see until recently, I would look for an RC paper, based on this remark by Mark McCormick:
"Note: if you really desire highly-ordered, grain direction-free finish then RC papers are the way to go"
(Re: Canson Platine vs Baryta vs Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta)

Then, in this thread,
Glossy fine art paper: suggestion needed, please
I found Tim Lookingbills suggestion for something that seems to be a "film paper",
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/544974-REG/Pictorico_PICT35001_Pictorico_Pro_Hi_Gloss_White.html

And there seem to be more of the kind, as listed by Ernst Dinkla on dpreview, march 17th, 2017:

"A superb glossy image depends on the ink too. Dye inks can do that, pigment inks not to the same degree.
Ilford Imaging is bankrupt so avoid that if you need supply later on.
Film qualities: (Mitsubishi) Pictorico PPF150 Pro Hi-Gloss White Film, FujiFilm Pop Up Banner, Bonjet in Germany/France has several choices, Photolux Synthetic Paper Gloss in  Germany, Kodak Production Glossy Poly Poster Plus Film, Canon Universal White Film
Some RC paper qualities with a High Gloss name come close to that, for example the Sihl and Canson RC papers.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
500+ inkjet paper white spectral plots: OBA content etc.
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm "

Is any of these "film-papers" OBA free? 

I don't print myself, and the prints shall be large, 90x130 cm, so I need a paper that comes in roll size - and a print service (in or near Germany) that offers it...

Thank you for your suggestions!

[mearussi]

No RC or white film based papers are OBA free that I know of. If you want a semi gloss OBA free paper then you're pretty much stuck with the high end 100% cotton (expensive) or Alpha-Cellulose (less expensive) papers from Canson, Moab, Hahnemuhle and a few others. Everyone has their favorite, with Canson Platine being mine at the present time, but getting sample packs are always the best way to decide for yourself.   

[Hening Bettermann]

Thanks for your comment, Mearussi.   

[Ernst Dinkla]

Thanks for your comment, Mearussi.

The Epson Proofing White Semi-Matte is the only near OBA free RC paper I have encountered. And it is tested at Aardenburg-Imaging.com Some other RC proofing papers are low in OBA too. The EPWSM's surface has a dull satin, neutral white point (warm color appearance ;-). Not free from bronzing with some printers.

Photolux Synthetic Gloss, a polypropylene film substrate, has an identical spectral plot. Print sample looks good though I do not know on what inkjet it was printed. Glossy, no bronzing visible. 220micron thickness which is not very thick and I wonder whether the polypropylene will mount well, like with polyethylene it is hard to create a bond with it. Suitable for back lighting and then free floating clamped between acrylic sheets. Might be possible to stretch it on an alu frame like done in the sign industry. Distribution in Europe, company based in Germany. I guess it is more widely distributed with other labels.

SpectrumViz screengrab with the two spectral plots.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[Hening Bettermann]

Hi Ernst, thank you for chiming in. I have to admit I had hoped you would.

(Semi-)matte and bronzing do not sound good to me. If I read your plot right, the Photolux Synthethic Gloss has some OBAs, which however do not cause the upward bulge in the spectral curve in the 420+ range. I can not look through: would this mean they would not interfere with my soft proof?? And is it possible to judge the amount of OBAs from the plot? I assume you mention this paper because the OBA content is low?

Ooops, I can not find the paper on the Photolux web site, the one that comes closest is called Studio Silver, 255 g/m2, it is described as the successor of a paper called studioGlossy.

So this paper seems to be discontinued. You mention that there are other RC papers which are low in OBA content. Would you care to specify them?

I am so far using PhotoLine for editing and soft proofing, and there is no choice of compensating for OBAs here. I do not want to change to Adobe, and not at all to the Cloud. Qimage for the Mac will arrive soon, and that may or may not have options for compensating for OBAs, but best would of course be to be (almost) free of them.

Wrt mounting: I would try to mount between wooden battens with magnets, so no bonding.

[mearussi]

I just finished a test of Canson's new Baryta Prestige and it's a very nice paper, in fact the best I've seen so far. It does have some OBAs but it also has the most even reflectivity on Ernst's site. The surface texture has a very slight pebbling to it which controls the reflectivitions nicely, but it's still sharp and has excellent dmax.

It's a very stiff paper though, similar in feel to posterboard like all Alpha-Cellulose papers I've tried, so I don't like that part (why most Barytas are put on Alpha-Cellulose I don't understand since 100% cotton is so much nicer). But the improvement over Platine is noticeable enough for me to consider switching.

[Hening Bettermann]

Thank you for the tip, mearussi.  The stiffness might as well be an advantage for my way of mounting-? It's all about the OBA content, in how far it will throw off my soft proofing. - You say the paper has excellent dmax. Would you care to provide a figure?

[mearussi]

Thank you for the tip, mearussi.  The stiffness might as well be an advantage for my way of mounting-? It's all about the OBA content, in how far it will throw off my soft proofing. - You say the paper has excellent dmax. Would you care to provide a figure?

I didn't measure it, just in comparison to the Platine and other prints I made earlier of the same image on different papers. My suggestion is to buy a box and see if it works for you. BTW, I just used Canson's canned profile and it was an excellent match for my 7800, matched my softproof exactly. 

[stockjock]

Paper preference is obviously a very individual thing.  Personally, I did not like the Canson Baryta Prestige.    The surface has a similar shimmery quality to the Canson Infinity Photo Lustre Premium Resin Coated paper which I dislike compared to their Satin papers.  Again, this is a very individual preference.  It did seem to have less gloss differential than the Satin papers.  And it is very thick.  If you are printing rolls I don't know how well it will flatten out.

Personally, I think the Epson Proofing White Semi-Matte paper is very nice for what it is and how it is priced.  But I wouldn't print on this for sale.  The Epson Premium Semimatte Photo Paper (260) is even nicer and just as cheap but it has OBA's and is only available in 24 and 44" rolls.  And the Epson Standard Proofing Paper Premium 250 makes a great first impression but that is because it is loaded with OBA's.  These inexpensive papers from Epson offer a lot of bang for the buck if you aren't looking for an archival paper with great hand feel.  But none of them made me want to switch from Canson Platine/Epson Legacy Platine as my standard paper.

[unesco]

Hi!
I am looking for an OBA free paper, smooth for sharpness, with high dmax, so glossy, but not super glossy so as to avoid excess reflections. I have earlier used Epson Premium Glossy, the degree of gloss seems right, but it has OBAs.
...

You can try Harman Gloss Baryta Warmtone if some are left in stock. My favorite, especially for B&W on Epsons.

[Ernst Dinkla]

Hi Ernst, thank you for chiming in. I have to admit I had hoped you would.

(Semi-)matte and bronzing do not sound good to me. If I read your plot right, the Photolux Synthethic Gloss has some OBAs, which however do not cause the upward bulge in the spectral curve in the 420+ range. I can not look through: would this mean they would not interfere with my soft proof?? And is it possible to judge the amount of OBAs from the plot? I assume you mention this paper because the OBA content is low?

Ooops, I can not find the paper on the Photolux web site, the one that comes closest is called Studio Silver, 255 g/m2, it is described as the successor of a paper called studioGlossy.

So this paper seems to be discontinued. You mention that there are other RC papers which are low in OBA content. Would you care to specify them?

I am so far using PhotoLine for editing and soft proofing, and there is no choice of compensating for OBAs here. I do not want to change to Adobe, and not at all to the Cloud. Qimage for the Mac will arrive soon, and that may or may not have options for compensating for OBAs, but best would of course be to be (almost) free of them.

Wrt mounting: I would try to mount between wooden battens with magnets, so no bonding.

Hening,

It is difficult to find out exactly what causes the left drop off in a spectral plot when there is no blue emitting bulge next to it. It means no UV light reflection for that part of UV light so an absorption of UV by a paper/coating component. The spectrometer used has a tungsten lamp that will not go far into UV territory (energy at least) and the sensor reports not deeper than 380 NM measurements. It is either a low amount of OBA very well balanced to the other whitening components, a TiO2 whitening agent that is not fluorescent but emits its energy in heat beyond the visual spectrum. Or a combination of both.

With spectral plots like that there is no reason to compensate anything, the white point is as good as with OBA free papers. The EPWSM seems to have some OBA in the paper base, Mark McCormicks report, but nothing to worry about for any aspect of print proofs, presentation, long term white point shift. There are art papers way worse.

If I do not use the gloss enhancer of my Z3200 I get bronzing on the EPWSM, in B&W easy to detect. Improves a lot when I use the full page gloss enhancer setting of the Z3200, in color prints it gets unnoticed then. What the Epson and Canon inks do I have no knowledge of.

The Photolux shop still has the Photolux Synthetic Paper glossy in a self-adhesive quality but running out. I should weed out the SpectrumViz measurements for their availability and put these in the Obsolete Papers map.

I really need the help of the community to get new samples for measurements too. I skipped the Photokina in 2016 for a planned holiday and that made an impact too. US distributed papers are easier to get there.

SpectrumViz can be downloaded for searching .........


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[Hening Bettermann]

Thanks to all of you who responded. Unesco, warm tone is not my thing. Ernst, I will now try to install SpectrumViz and see what I can find. If I understand you right, if the plot is near-linear, a little OBA content will not interfere with the soft proof. That is good news.

[Hening Bettermann]

Now I have studied the SpectrumViz plots, looking for a glossy RC paper with only a moderate peak in the 420 nm area. I found some, but found also that Epson Premium Glossy (my point of departure) is one of them. So I wonder if the heavy yellow/brown cast I see in the print I had made is really due to a mismatch of the soft proof due to FBAs. Before I conclude so, reluctantly drop the gloss and convert to Epson Proofing White Semimatte, I think I'll wait for the Mac version of Qimage and see which soft proofing options it has.

Since alpha-cellulose papers are said to be less expensive than cotton, I also had a look at them, and I favored Innova IFA69 White Baryta 310 and MediaJet PhotoArt White Baryta 310 (in the Satin/Lustre/Pearl group).

Thanks again to all of you who responded!

[Ernst Dinkla]

Now I have studied the SpectrumViz plots, looking for a glossy RC paper with only a moderate peak in the 420 nm area. I found some, but found also that Epson Premium Glossy (my point of departure) is one of them. So I wonder if the heavy yellow/brown cast I see in the print I had made is really due to a mismatch of the soft proof due to FBAs. Before I conclude so, reluctantly drop the gloss and convert to Epson Proofing White Semimatte, I think I'll wait for the Mac version of Qimage and see which soft proofing options it has.

Since alpha-cellulose papers are said to be less expensive than cotton, I also had a look at them, and I favored Innova IFA69 White Baryta 310 and MediaJet PhotoArt White Baryta 310 (in the Satin/Lustre/Pearl group).

Thanks again to all of you who responded!

I wonder what your OBA/FBA/FWA compensation in soft proofing does and is needed for. First of all most profiling for RGB devices is not made with UV enabled spectrometers, the light source and/or sensor does not measure into UV.  When the profiling software then takes fluorescence of the paper etc into account it is by using an extrapolation of the measurements in the visible spectrum, say the slope of the spectral plot from yellow to blue is tilted more in that direction than the measurements show.

https://www.argyllcms.com/doc/FWA.html

For the usual practice of photo printing I do not see an advantage in compensation. Proofs made on the same paper as the print will be made on, do not need it. Proofs made on another (inexpensive) paper dictates that both papers differ little on their fluorescence or you have to go the ArgyllCMS route or more pro profiling - pre press RIP routes.  Viewing light should in theory be the same as the prints will have on display but the last is most of the time out of control so stick to the viewing light that correlates with your monitor. Framing behind glass limits OBA effects already. So in general try to limit OBA content in the paper and stick to normal profiles made for it, that should make color constancy to different light sources optimal in practice and makes test printing less complicated.

That said I think UV enabled spectrometers (tungsten, one measurement run) measuring OBA free papers is the best practice for photo printing. However more often I take the Z3200 route and the spectrometer in the printer does not measure into UV  .....


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[Hening Bettermann]

Hi Ernst,

thank you for your continued concern.

> I wonder what your OBA/FBA/FWA compensation in soft proofing does and is needed for.
[...]
For the usual practice of photo printing I do not see an advantage in compensation. Proofs made on the same paper as the print will be made on, do not need it.
[...]
So in general try to limit OBA content in the paper and stick to normal profiles made for it, that should make color constancy to different light sources optimal in practice and makes test printing less complicated.

That is surprise and good news to me. My experience is this: When soft proofing with PhotoLine, I found that the contrast of the monitor image changed in the exspected way, it was reduced. But color did not change, to my surprise. I sent the file and got back a print that had a heavy yellow/brown cast, compared to the monitor image. So I blamed it on a mismatch somewhere in the proofing process, and OBAs came to mind. Another possibility would be that the mistake is somewhere on the side of the print service. If OBAs are not guilty, I can check that before awaiting the arrival of Qimage for the Mac: I will contact you via your web site, ask you to send me *your* profile for the Epson Premium Glossy (and for the Epson Proofing White Semimatte, in case...) and see what happens...
(My monitor is calibrated to 5000 K, and the viewing light is Yuji, also 5000 K, and so is the camera profile, made with DCamProf).

[GrahamBy]

If I do not use the gloss enhancer of my Z3200 I get bronzing on the EPWSM, in B&W easy to detect. Improves a lot when I use the full page gloss enhancer setting of the Z3200, in color prints it gets unnoticed then. What the Epson and Canon inks do I have no knowledge of.

Ernst, thanks for once again providing such good information.

Just to clarify, when you saying bronzing is "easy to detect": does that mean when you go looking for it by deliberately looking at an extreme angle of view with shallow lighting angle, or is it noticeable under "almost normal" viewing conditions?

Very tempted to try EPWSM, but I can only find in A3+ sheets in boxes of 100, which is rather a lot for me to consider as a sampler

[Ernst Dinkla]

Ernst, thanks for once again providing such good information.

Just to clarify, when you saying bronzing is "easy to detect": does that mean when you go looking for it by deliberately looking at an extreme angle of view with shallow lighting angle, or is it noticeable under "almost normal" viewing conditions?

Very tempted to try EPWSM, but I can only find in A3+ sheets in boxes of 100, which is rather a lot for me to consider as a sampler

I checked it again, it is visible in the surface's direct reflection of a lamp and then no extreme angles are needed. On the other hand that is not a good viewing condition of the print either. With gloss enhancer and normal viewing conditions it is not noticeable. HP Z3200. No knowledge of other inks but as an Epson paper I expect no issue with Epsons either.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[GrahamBy]

Dank U, Ernst. Funny thing, I bought Peter Lindbergh's "Anothe view ..." book, and there is lots of easy to see bronzing... and I don't mind it at all. It makes it a bit like a magic book for children, which changes as you tilt it