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Author Topic: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7  (Read 49612 times)

hogloff

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #160 on: October 20, 2017, 10:21:05 am »

Adobe is a business who's main goals are to make money...like most businesses out there. It's very obvious to me that if a perpetual license of LR 7 would have made them buckets of money...they would have released it. It seems to me that the number of perpetual licenses being sold just did not justify to keep it going compared to the subscriptions. I know from their investor relations information, the subscriptions and revenue has been exceeding their expectations for some time.

Maybe it's just the silent majority of photographers have moved onto the subscription model and there just is not enough perpetual model photographers to justify keeping the model going.

Bottom line, people need to decide their direction and head that way...
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pegelli

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #161 on: October 20, 2017, 10:30:15 am »

Bottom line, people need to decide their direction and head that way...
Yup, fully agree. Since I saw it coming (for the reasons you mention) the implementation of my strategy started today

see my previous answer to you

Actually there's nothing I needed to do, even saved the € 75+ upgrade cost to LR7 perpetual  :)
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pieter, aka pegelli

ButchM

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #162 on: October 20, 2017, 10:32:58 am »

Like every contract for such services?

But there are important contractual angles to a pure LRCC/LRM/LRW workflow that I don't think are adequately covered by the general terms. It's not like when Auntie Jane the Photographer dies and you can examine her hard drive. So I am trying to get answers from Adobe on a couple of things that are implicitly part of the contract.

One is what exactly happens when you stop subscribing - what happens to your originals uploaded to their cloud? I haven't yet seen where Adobe says "you have x days' grace to download them" or "here's a tool to help you download everything that's yours."  What about any titles, captions or other metadata? Where is this stated when you sign up?

Another is what happens when the subscriber dies? Can next-of-kin gain access to his or her photos? How and for how long? It's taken us 18 months to finalise our late father's estate (even with both of us having relevant expertise), so 30 days' grace wouldn't be enough. In any case, how would the next-of-kin know that the family photos or the valuable IP is in Adobe's cloud? Is there a provision for a subscriber to record the next-of-kin so they are reminded annually? Where is this stated when you sign up?

It does less, but does it without you needing to know what one is.

Not sure where I saw it ... but I saw it stated at least twice in my travels on various sites/blogs since the announcement that LRCC images uploaded to Adobe servers would be available for download by the customer for up to one year after a subscription expires. There was also the mention of a forthcoming download utility for this purpose.
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jrsforums

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #163 on: October 20, 2017, 10:54:17 am »

Adobe is a business who's main goals are to make money...like most businesses out there. It's very obvious to me that if a perpetual license of LR 7 would have made them buckets of money...they would have released it. It seems to me that the number of perpetual licenses being sold just did not justify to keep it going compared to the subscriptions. I know from their investor relations information, the subscriptions and revenue has been exceeding their expectations for some time.

Maybe it's just the silent majority of photographers have moved onto the subscription model and there just is not enough perpetual model photographers to justify keeping the model going.

Bottom line, people need to decide their direction and head that way...

Agree.

The other thing a lot of people do not realize is there are significant real cost associated with releasing a new perpetual license (such as LR7).  First, there is the package creation, test, and release.  On going, is the need for separate support for this package, particularly as time goes on the the package continues to diverge for the evolving licensed version.

This cost needs to be weighed against the opportunity projected releasing the product.  Obviously. It didn’t make the cut.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #164 on: October 20, 2017, 10:59:42 am »

Not sure where I saw it ... but I saw it stated at least twice in my travels on various sites/blogs since the announcement that LRCC images uploaded to Adobe servers would be available for download by the customer for up to one year after a subscription expires. There was also the mention of a forthcoming download utility for this purpose.

Yes, I've since found Creative Cloud Photography plans | Common questions  under "What happens to my photos if I end my membership?"

Quote
Adobe will continue to store your original images for one year after your membership lapses. During that time, you can continue to launch Lightroom CC to download your original files from our cloud services.​

So it seems that Adobe expect that the next-of-kin would know they have to access a computer with LRCC and be able to log into the user's account. What could go wrong?
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john beardsworth

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #165 on: October 20, 2017, 11:04:25 am »

The other thing a lot of people do not realize is there are significant real cost associated with releasing a new perpetual license (such as LR7).  First, there is the package creation, test, and release.  On going, is the need for separate support for this package, particularly as time goes on the the package continues to diverge for the evolving licensed version.
This cost needs to be weighed against the opportunity projected releasing the product.  Obviously. It didn’t make the cut.

I wouldn't exaggerate it though. The software is the same and the subscription-limited features are probably hidden by code that checks whether a variable has been set. Dehaze is a good example.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #166 on: October 20, 2017, 11:26:52 am »

I commented on this earlier.  I have a good fiber optic Internet connection but remember that when one does a speed test it's really a synthetic number and not what the real speed is.  I remember doing my first cloud back up about five years ago.  I had about 200MB of data to up load and it took about six full working days to get it uploaded.  Now that connection was slower by about a factor of three than what I currently have.  The cloud service back up will work for those who have real fast service but that comes with a big price tag and you need to figure that into the price going forward.  Right now I get 30Mb/sec upload speed for about $40/month.  If I move to the Adobe cloud LR, my real costs become about $60/month when I include the Internet provider fee.  This is perhaps OK if one can write this off on taxes as a business expense.

I'll leave aside the security issues as those can be dealt with through encryption of your images assuming Adobe allows that feature (Amazon Simple Storage doesn't care if things are encrypted or not, that is up to the application one is using for upload to choose).

Finally, one LuLa member said "How long to you want them to support it without spending a dime?"  I already responded that I was willing to pay an upgrade fee for a new stand alone version of LR that offered new tools.  the only support for legacy LR that is really needed is for new cameras and I doubt that is a big engineering feat for Adobe to accomplish.
A one-time charge for adding RAW files for new cameras to "Classic" would be fair, let's say $10-$20.  If they're providing support, they should get paid.  Of course, that would defeat Adobe's "hook" to get you to switch to CC.  So in their mind, they wouldn't want to do anything that would allow you to keep using Classic even if they could get paid for it.  Their business plan is ramsomware, a perpetual rental agreement. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #167 on: October 20, 2017, 11:31:00 am »

What happens to all the edits when you cancel CC?  Do you only get jpegs or tiffs?   Do the edits and ability to make edits have to be re-started with Classic?  Or, can you pick up with classic where the edits with CC left off.  I believe it's the former.  So it's kind of like not wanting to drop your health insurance when you have a pre-existing condition.  You'll be up a creek without a paddle.

Hoggy

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #168 on: October 20, 2017, 11:32:03 am »

I wouldn't exaggerate it though. The software is the same and the subscription-limited features are probably hidden by code that checks whether a variable has been set. Dehaze is a good example.
Thanks!  I was just about to say that.  I think all too often it seems people think that they're 2 completely separate versions.  (And seriously - how many people still buy software in boxes..  I probably haven't done so for over 20 years.)
Still, Adobe really ought to do something about allowing a current snapshot after x many years [with Classic CC]..  With access to ALL features/modules, should one not be able to afford the continuing ransom for decades on end - just to be able to see where their photos were taken on a map, or touch up some older edits.  Having such an escape route as perpetual has been a comfort - until now.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 11:41:31 am by Hoggy »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #169 on: October 20, 2017, 11:32:59 am »

A one-time charge for adding RAW files for new cameras to "Classic" would be fair, let's say $10-$20.  If they're providing support, they should get paid.  Of course, that would defeat Adobe's "hook" to get you to switch to CC.  So in their mind, they wouldn't want to do anything that would allow you to keep using Classic even if they could get paid for it.  Their business plan is ramsomware, a perpetual rental agreement.
Exactly.  Those of us who still use 'perpetual' LR6 are no unwilling to pay Adobe a reasonable fee.  It is Adobe who want to push everyone into the subscription model so that they can monetize future income.  they also tie you down by disabling the develop module should you decide to cancel your subscription, it's a very clever business model.
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pegelli

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #170 on: October 20, 2017, 11:39:23 am »

Thanks!  I was just about to say that.  I think all too often it seems people think that they're 2 completely separate versions.
Still, Adobe really ought to do something about allowing a current snapshot after x many years [with Classic]..  With access to ALL features/modules, should one not be able to afford the continuing ransom for decades on end - just to be able to see where their photos were taken on a map, or touch up some older edits.  Having such an escape route as perpetual has been a comfort - until now.
What about only disabling the import function and stop all upates/new camera support when you cancel your subscription? That basically lets you work on all images taken and with the tools you got while paying the licence.

For me that would be a condition that I could see myself entering into a subscription model. I would be OK with that, even if they ask a reasonable minimum subscription time (1-2 years) before you're allowed to pull out
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 11:43:33 am by pegelli »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #171 on: October 20, 2017, 11:41:51 am »

What about only disabling the import function? That basically lets you work on all images taken while paying a licence and not add any more after you stopped.

For me that would be a condition that I could see myself entering into a subscription model.
Seriously, this is the idea of the year award!!!  Not sure how easy it would be to implement however.
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Hoggy

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #172 on: October 20, 2017, 11:49:09 am »

What about only disabling the import function? That basically lets you work on all images taken while paying a licence and not add any more after you stopped.

For me that would be a condition that I could see myself entering into a subscription model.
That would at least be a start.  But what if the person wasn't able to afford it any longer due to job loss or disability.  And especially regarding the latter, what if photography could be an eventual source of income for them, but in the meantime are not able to resume paying the ransom and are SOL..  They may have to scrounge/borrow enough for a perpetual license of some other software, but therefore also breaking the continuity of their entire image collection in the process.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #173 on: October 20, 2017, 12:40:40 pm »

What about only disabling the import function and stop all upates/new camera support when you cancel your subscription? That basically lets you work on all images taken and with the tools you got while paying the licence.

For me that would be a condition that I could see myself entering into a subscription model. I would be OK with that, even if they ask a reasonable minimum subscription time (1-2 years) before you're allowed to pull out
That's not part of Adobe's plan.  They're like the Roach Motel.  Once you go in, you can't get out. 

luxborealis

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #174 on: October 20, 2017, 07:30:44 pm »

Why? Since you paid for all LR updates...doesn't the subscription just make this easier?

Do the math! Beyond that, though, the concept of subscription software just doesn't sit right with me. We're not talking about disposable magazine's here; processing is part of the photography equation. Could you imagine Nikon or Canon moving to that model? I don't rent my hardware; what real benefit is there to renting my software, especially when, in the last few years, LR has not changed appreciably. The benefit is all Adobe’s; it’s their way of milking an already mature product.
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hogloff

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #175 on: October 20, 2017, 07:41:47 pm »

Do the math! Beyond that, though, the concept of subscription software just doesn't sit right with me. We're not talking about disposable magazine's here; processing is part of the photography equation. Could you imagine Nikon or Canon moving to that model? I don't rent my hardware; what real benefit is there to renting my software, especially when, in the last few years, LR has not changed appreciably. The benefit is all Adobe’s; it’s their way of milking an already mature product.

Many photographers rent specific gear for a shoot. Many people lease cars rather than buy them. Many people rent the accommodations rather than buy them. With the depreciation of some photo gear...a subscription model might work very well. Right now I have a couple of cameras that I could not give away...depreciated from $2500 to basically $0.
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Hoggy

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #176 on: October 20, 2017, 08:25:33 pm »

Many photographers rent specific gear for a shoot. Many people lease cars rather than buy them. Many people rent the accommodations rather than buy them. With the depreciation of some photo gear...a subscription model might work very well. Right now I have a couple of cameras that I could not give away...depreciated from $2500 to basically $0.
So are these people renting gear perpetually on end, or are there breaks?  Are these people no longer able to change/edit the images they made with that rented gear, once they are no longer renting it?
...............
Yet another analogy that would be personal to me (but may/could be a more equivalent analogy) is making DIY liquids for my vaporizers (aka e-cgigs ).  If my recipe calculator were suddenly available by rental only (under an 'Adobe Plan'), I would no longer be able to change ingredients (i.e. flavorings) or percentages of ingredients of MY OWN recipes that I made while renting the software - or see when (map data) they were last made.  In what world does any of this make any sense at all.
Also in the DIY analogy, all my recipes would be in the one program.  If I decided to stop paying the ransom, I would lose continuity when switching to another non-RansomWare recipe calculator.  And because I couldn't create ('import') any new recipes after that, what are the chances that I would have wanted to start using such a program to begin with had I known.
....................
I suppose the DIY e-liquid recipe calculator could be applied to a cooking recipe calculator if people might not understand the e-liquid calculations that are needed -- I guess think of halving or doubling recipes on top of adding or removing ingredients, as well as updating instructions.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 08:41:09 pm by Hoggy »
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Hoggy

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #177 on: October 20, 2017, 08:35:05 pm »

... To compound the problem as far as non-destructive image editing databases go, the ARE NO true equivalents in editing instructions between programs.  At least with the DIY analogy, there could possibly be ways to import the old data one-to-one if someone were to write the converter.  Non-destructive image editing database -- not even possible (or probable).
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hogloff

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #178 on: October 21, 2017, 12:47:29 am »

So are these people renting gear perpetually on end, or are there breaks?  Are these people no longer able to change/edit the images they made with that rented gear, once they are no longer renting it?
...............
Yet another analogy that would be personal to me (but may/could be a more equivalent analogy) is making DIY liquids for my vaporizers (aka e-cgigs ).  If my recipe calculator were suddenly available by rental only (under an 'Adobe Plan'), I would no longer be able to change ingredients (i.e. flavorings) or percentages of ingredients of MY OWN recipes that I made while renting the software - or see when (map data) they were last made.  In what world does any of this make any sense at all.
Also in the DIY analogy, all my recipes would be in the one program.  If I decided to stop paying the ransom, I would lose continuity when switching to another non-RansomWare recipe calculator.  And because I couldn't create ('import') any new recipes after that, what are the chances that I would have wanted to start using such a program to begin with had I known.
....................
I suppose the DIY e-liquid recipe calculator could be applied to a cooking recipe calculator if people might not understand the e-liquid calculations that are needed -- I guess think of halving or doubling recipes on top of adding or removing ingredients, as well as updating instructions.

Once you stop paying the lease payments on your car...it will be taken away. Once you stopped paying your monthly phone bill, it will be cut off. I don’t get your point...stop any subscriptions and it’s service ends.
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Hoggy

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #179 on: October 21, 2017, 02:35:21 am »

Once you stop paying the lease payments on your car...it will be taken away. Once you stopped paying your monthly phone bill, it will be cut off. I don’t get your point...stop any subscriptions and it’s service ends.
Those things are not databases.
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