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Author Topic: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7  (Read 49613 times)

john beardsworth

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2017, 10:39:29 am »

Ok, so we shouldn't expect things like better demosaicing algorithm like when upgrading from PV2010 to PV2012, right?

Yes, nothing that radical. They are updating those algorithms without changing the PV - certainly with Fuji last year.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2017, 11:36:02 am »

Sad, but not surprising.

Hopefully the folks at Serif (Affinity Photo and Affinity Designer) will start developing their planned DAM application sooner rather than later. They now have another incentive. They are probably close to updating their current applications which should bring those feature-rich applications to a pretty mature state in a relatively short time, for both Mac and Windows platforms. So that might give them a bit more time to also focus on their version of a DAM system.

Cheers,
Bart
Yes this would be a good thing as it would provide some competition for Adobe.  I'm still on stand alone LR6 and pretty much use Affinity Photo rather than Photoshop for those times I need to do something more.  The problem with subscription services is that the price can always be increased and once you are locked in options are limited.  Anyway, we've been over all this many times in the past.
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marc aurel

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2017, 12:02:46 pm »

This is a situation where Capture One could grab a lot of new customers. What an invitation from Adobe.
I hope they revise their decision not to support the GFX. I would leave Lightroom and switch to C1 if they would.
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hogloff

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2017, 02:21:22 pm »

This is a situation where Capture One could grab a lot of new customers. What an invitation from Adobe.
I hope they revise their decision not to support the GFX. I would leave Lightroom and switch to C1 if they would.

Heard this same arguemrnt when adobe first introduced their CC plan...rats will be jumping off the sinking Adobe ship. They now have record customers and revenues. Who would have thunk that?
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2017, 02:28:30 pm »

Heard this same arguemrnt when adobe first introduced their CC plan...rats will be jumping off the sinking Adobe ship. They now have record customers and revenues. Who would have thunk that?
I don't think Adobe breaks down their sales figures to the degree of granularity to be able to say what photographers are doing.  Remember a lot of graphic arts pros use the entire Creative Suite package and that is where Adobe makes the big money.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2017, 02:33:24 pm »

Heard this same arguemrnt when adobe first introduced their CC plan...rats will be jumping off the sinking Adobe ship. They now have record customers and revenues. Who would have thunk that?

Correct. The threat is as much from the likes of Apple and Google.

For a reflective look at today's announcements, see Peter Krogh's post http://thedambook.com/lightroom-innovators-dilemma/
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2017, 02:34:38 pm »

For people who think that rushing in to Capture 1 would be a better solution, if you like their payment conditions better that's fine; and technically no question it's a fine application, but before making that decision I would suggest a careful read of Martin Evening's recent comparative analysis; it's very insightful: Martin Evening LR vs C1; perhaps now that newer versions of both are available an update would be very interesting.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2017, 02:45:58 pm »

Correct. The threat is as much from the likes of Apple and Google.

For a reflective look at today's announcements, see Peter Krogh's post http://thedambook.com/lightroom-innovators-dilemma/
I read this and don't believe it's reflective of much of anything.  For those of us who do most of our work at home, regular LR is all that we need.  To put everything up on the cloud may be beneficial to some but how many?  Maybe folks that are out JPG shooting and want to post right away but then there are other ways to do that.  Is LR becoming the Instagram of photo apps?
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2017, 02:51:12 pm »

For people who think that rushing in to Capture 1 would be a better solution, if you like their payment conditions better that's fine; and technically no question it's a fine application, but before making that decision I would suggest a careful read of Martin Evening's recent comparative analysis; it's very insightful: Martin Evening LR vs C1; perhaps now that newer versions of both are available an update would be very interesting.
Interesting also in that it appears in a publication that supports Adobe PS and LR.  I own several of Martin Evening's books and they are very good but his boat is tied to the Adobe ship.  I've read from a lot of those who post on LuLa that they like C1.  I'm not rushing out to buy either product right now as my needs are met with the current LR6 stand alone.  unless I buy a new camera (unlikely) LR6 is OK going forward.  I already own Affinity Photo which is a fine product and things I cannot do in LR can be done there.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2017, 03:15:52 pm »

I read this and don't believe it's reflective of much of anything.  For those of us who do most of our work at home, regular LR is all that we need.  To put everything up on the cloud may be beneficial to some but how many?  Maybe folks that are out JPG shooting and want to post right away but then there are other ways to do that.  Is LR becoming the Instagram of photo apps?

Really? Not reflective of the wider market trends? You have to stand back from the detail and look at the bigger picture. Sure, for many of us regular LR is the best solution with some mobile syncing, and the new LRCC is dumbed down and strangely feature-incomplete. But just like I like using Dropbox to have stuff on my Mac/PC/iPhone/iPad/browser, I can see the basic attraction of having all my originals available anywhere.

It's other things that stand in the way of this ideal world. Not bandwidth for me, though that will apply to some, fewer year by year. I'm not looking to entrust the safekeeping of my photos to any third party, and there is a big hole in Adobe's offering (so big I am surprised it is being launched). But surely anyone can see the attraction of having your stuff anywhere?
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john beardsworth

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2017, 03:18:33 pm »

Interesting also in that it appears in a publication that supports Adobe PS and LR.  I own several of Martin Evening's books and they are very good but his boat is tied to the Adobe ship.

Shoot the messenger if you don't like the message? Martin uses P1 cameras.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2017, 03:29:14 pm »

Interesting also in that it appears in a publication that supports Adobe PS and LR.  I own several of Martin Evening's books and they are very good but his boat is tied to the Adobe ship.  ...............

Ya, but I'm not concerned about any of that - who published the article, whether his boat is tied to any ship and yada yada - instead I suggest just read the article, make up your mind whether the methodology is good and hence whether the conclusions are reasonable, and I'd enjoy your technical feedback on that. As for me, there's only so many conspiracy theories a day I can cope with, so this isn't going to be one of them, because I did read the article back then and as I recall it, I didn't see any obvious issues with it, but that's just me, others may think otherwise, who knows :-).
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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IanSeward

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2017, 04:36:23 pm »

For people who think that rushing in to Capture 1 would be a better solution, if you like their payment conditions better that's fine; and technically no question it's a fine application, but before making that decision I would suggest a careful read of Martin Evening's recent comparative analysis; it's very insightful: Martin Evening LR vs C1; perhaps now that newer versions of both are available an update would be very interesting.

I think Martin’s article is well worth the read.  I also agree with his comment towards the end of the article:

“Capture One’s philosophy is to produce a more optimized look that doesn’t necessarily require further editing. This may have led to the perception that Capture One is sharper and punchier, but in reality, neither program is inherently better than the other when it comes to actually working on your images and adjusting the settings to suit individual tastes.”

He outlines an 8 step process which will allow LR to achieve similar results to C1.  However, I have found that fact that C1 enables me, in martin’s words “to produce a more optimized look that doesn’t necessarily require further editing.”, is very beneficial as it saves time.

I used LR since V1 and periodically used to look at other software.  The reality was I opened the new software, went "ugh!, what the hell" when confronted by a strange looking UI, pushed a few sliders and spent time trying to work as if I was in LR and then closed the program and went meh!  I have been Adobe or nothing for more years then I care to remember

It was only when I seriously looked at alternative software, motivated by Adobe's move to rental that I recognised that there were in fact better ways of doing things.  It is also not all about raw conversion quality, UI is important.  I used to spend my life scrolling up and down the LR UI interface, or working in solo mode and clicking tabs, and constantly switching between Library and Develop and think nothing about it - that is just how it is.
However, once you experience and use software with a customisable UI it is hard to go back. 

For example, with C1 you have a unified workspace with Develop and Library combined, not having to switch between develop and library actually took some getting used to and I even set the short key to give me a grid view in C1, then eventually asked myself why?? Who wouldn't want to be able to choose which tools they see in develop or the order they are in, or design their own workspace for when they are concentrating on key wording / rating? 

Having a choice between importing the files into catalogues or simply working on the files in Session mode - staggering concept when you have only used Adobe software.  So you work in sessions but you don't have the advantages of a catalogue?  Not with C1.  Ok finished with the session you have culled, rated, key worded,  developed your keepers, exported your selects to your selects folder etc.  OK, just import the session in a few clicks into your master catalogue.
The point is that when you look at alternative software you have no idea of its potential outside of what your existing software does and how it does it.  You have no idea of how much of a workflow advantage a customisable UI, choose your own key board shortcuts,  etc. can give unless you gain "real" experience with the new software.  That takes effort and is the reason Adobe puts so much effort into gaining initial market share. 
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pegelli

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2017, 04:59:43 pm »

I don't think this thread is about LR vs. C1 in terms of speed, user friendlyness or results. Both are very capable programs which can achieve (similar) outstanding results if you know how to work them and both have their warts, strength and weaknesses.

It's more about pay once and know what you get or pay forever (not knowing how much) for a promise of "improved" functionality in the future without an easy way out.

For me as a simple amateur I'll avoid the latter option as long as I can, but everybody has to make their own choice in that.
However I hoped Tom Hogarty would have kept good on his word to keep LR perpetual licences going for further updates and his dry "matter of fact" announcement today without any recognition of a change of direction vs. past statements doesn't in my mind bode well for future cost of the CC licence fees as well as the sunset option once you decide to stop the ongoing licence arrangement. I hope I'm wrong, but this move doesn't give me a comfortable feeling and certainly doesn't motivate me to step into the CC option quickly.

Btw, I thought Adobe would be OK with some critical remarks regarding this move on their blog, however my entry (essentially my first post in this thread) is still "awaiting moderation" and I wouldn't be surprised if it is deleted by tomorrow. Another reason for me not to start paying more money to this company when I have no idea when and how I can stop it without a serious impact on how I process my raw files.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 05:06:51 pm by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2017, 05:36:20 pm »

I don't think this thread is about LR vs. C1 in terms of speed, user friendlyness or results. Both are very capable programs which can achieve (similar) outstanding results if you know how to work them and both have their warts, strength and weaknesses.

It's more about pay once and know what you get or pay forever (not knowing how much) for a promise of "improved" functionality in the future without an easy way out.
It's more complicated than that.  C1 is $300 and you get free upgrades for life.  this does not include major releases which will cost more or you can do it just like LR and go the subscription route.  I assume the 'free upgrades' are support for new cameras. 

Quote
However I hoped Tom Hogarty would have kept good on his word to keep LR perpetual licences going for further updates and his dry "matter of fact" announcement today without any recognition of a change of direction vs. past statements doesn't in my mind bode well for future cost of the CC licence fees as well as the sunset option once you decide to stop the ongoing licence arrangement. I hope I'm wrong, but this move doesn't give me a comfortable feeling and certainly doesn't motivate me to step into the CC option quickly.
This was not surprising to me at all.

Quote
Btw, I thought Adobe would be OK with some critical remarks regarding this move on their blog, however my entry (essentially my first post in this thread) is still "awaiting moderation" and I wouldn't be surprised if it is deleted by tomorrow. Another reason for me not to start paying more money to this company when I have no idea when and how I can stop it without a serious impact on how I process my raw files.
To paraphrase what was said on the 'Coffee Corner', it's Adobe's Blog and they can moderate the way they want.  If you save all your processed work as TIFFs you can exit the subscription model any time you want without any issues.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2017, 06:08:03 pm »

I think the dpreview article sums up my position very well; https://www.dpreview.com/opinion/5431017013/rip-lightroom-6-death-by-subscription-model

"Adobe is turning its back on a certain type of enthusiast photographers: those users who enjoy and care about their photography enough to buy Adobe's products, but don't need to edit 'in the field' or have clients to justify the ongoing cost of subscription software."

Their loss, I was happy to pay for upgrades.

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Alskoj

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2017, 07:10:11 pm »

The student price for Lightroom and Photoshop seems reasonable - $10 mo. or $120 yr.
I have two college students in my house so I can take advantage of them - they sure take advantage of me!  ;)
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hogloff

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2017, 07:55:44 pm »

The student price for Lightroom and Photoshop seems reasonable - $10 mo. or $120 yr.
I have two college students in my house so I can take advantage of them - they sure take advantage of me!  ;)

That's just the going rate for LR / PS CC for everyone. I would think students would get a better rate.
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ButchM

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2017, 08:33:39 pm »

... But just like I like using Dropbox to have stuff on my Mac/PC/iPhone/iPad/browser, I can see the basic attraction of having all my originals available anywhere.


Except there are reasonable solutions ... at least as compared to the current state of Lightroom CC offering ... that are the same or less expensive, in fact, some that are nearly or mostly free that don't entangle the end user in paying a monthly stipend in perpetuity.

For example, an advanced hobbyist could get by with the iOS and macOS Photos App and maybe Affinity Photo or the forthcoming Pixelmator Pro for a very significant savings that includes all your images on all your devices. Many of these options have been available for some time. Adobe is actually late to the party.
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luxborealis

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Re: Bye, Bye Lightroom perpetual licenses .... No Lightroom 7
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2017, 09:24:39 pm »

Sad, really" I’ve invested 10years into Lightroom, purchasing upgrades each time, even teaching it at the College level. But I’m not about to invest the next 20+ years into perpetual CC licensing. Adobe can kiss my a**!
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Terry McDonald - luxBorealis.com
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