Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Why no colour checker?  (Read 4195 times)

Endeavour

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 276
Why no colour checker?
« on: October 13, 2017, 08:27:13 PM »

Why is there no colour checker support in Capture One, like there is in Lightroom?

How do I ensure I get accurate colour reproduction in artwork when I cant run a profile between x-rite colorchecker and Capture One?

Do I just switch to Lightroom and ditch Capture One
Logged

Rhossydd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2716
    • http://www.paulholman.com
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2017, 05:15:23 AM »

Why is there no colour checker support in Capture One, like there is in Lightroom?
There isn't any 'color checker support' in Lightroom.

You can use separate software to create dcp camera profiles to use in Lightroom and ACR and these usually use a CC24 target (some packages can use other references too).
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 05:20:25 AM by Rhossydd »
Logged

BartvanderWolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6864
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2017, 05:28:42 AM »

There isn't any 'color checker support' in Lightroom.

You can use separate software to create dcp camera profiles to use in Lightroom and ACR and these usually use a CC24 target (some packages can use other references too).

Correct, and Lumariver Profile Designer Repro Edition (LRPD) offers specific support for Capture One Pro (ICC profiles and tonecurves), and can create specific Reproduction profiles.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Rhossydd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2716
    • http://www.paulholman.com
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2017, 06:07:41 AM »

Yes, there's quite a few packages that will build camera ICC profiles.

It's also worth noting that the profiles generated for LR/ACR from most packages aren't really accurate enough for reproduction work anyway. Each one delivers different results.
Logged

Endeavour

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 276
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2017, 07:18:19 AM »

Correct, and Lumariver Profile Designer Repro Edition (LRPD) offers specific support for Capture One Pro (ICC profiles and tonecurves), and can create specific Reproduction profiles.

Cheers,
Bart

Thats what I use :)

I was just curious why there is no straight support for colour matching in C1, it seems such a straightforward feature (putting the argument of 24 blocks not being enough aside)
Logged

myotis

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 214
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2017, 07:44:49 AM »

(putting the argument of 24 blocks not being enough aside)

Except, this would seem to be at least part of Phase One's rationale.

A quote from C1 Technical support

"Using a Colour Checker does not guarantee all correct colours from the very limited patches on the color checker. In fact can lead to other oddities in color rendition. The out of the box result from Capture One should be very colour accurate. You can always use the Colour Editor if you want to tune specific colours."

Not to me, but on a thread in another place  https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60141429

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with C1 (don't have the expertise) but I also assume, given they supply the specialist Cultural Heritage version of C1, they know a reasonable amount about producing accurate colour. Though I understand the main advantage of the   CH version is to do with workflow.

Cheers,

Graham
Logged

Rhossydd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2716
    • http://www.paulholman.com
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2017, 07:58:56 AM »

I was just curious why there is no straight support for colour matching in C1, it seems such a straightforward feature
If it's so straight forward, why has no one offered this ?

I can't think of any image editing package that has any similar option.

The answer is that is incredibly more complex than just "let's match these colours".

Quote
putting the argument of 24 blocks not being enough aside
That in itself is a major issue.
Logged

Endeavour

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 276
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2017, 09:08:53 AM »

Except, this would seem to be at least part of Phase One's rationale.

A quote from C1 Technical support

"Using a Colour Checker does not guarantee all correct colours from the very limited patches on the color checker. In fact can lead to other oddities in color rendition. The out of the box result from Capture One should be very colour accurate. You can always use the Colour Editor if you want to tune specific colours."

Not to me, but on a thread in another place  https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60141429

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with C1 (don't have the expertise) but I also assume, given they supply the specialist Cultural Heritage version of C1, they know a reasonable amount about producing accurate colour. Though I understand the main advantage of the   CH version is to do with workflow.

Cheers,

Graham

I suspect this has a lot to do with it.
Logged

myotis

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 214
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2017, 09:15:37 AM »

I suspect this has a lot to do with it.

Yes, I did notice this and they also talk about other colour management tools, but given the price and my needs, I haven't studied this version  in detail.

Cheers,

Graham
Logged

Dinarius

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1024
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2017, 09:17:00 AM »

I think the issues with C1's colour editor would need to be addressed first. No?

A lot of time spent keeping up with the deluge of new cameras, and not enough time devoted to big fixes and improvements.

That's the beauty of using the likes of Hasselblad's Phocus and it's inbuilt colour profiling. Only a handful of camera models to be concerned about.

While I love C1 for my Canon files, its one-size-fits-all commitment is something that would deter me from using it for medium-format and moving from Hasselblad.

D.
Logged

Endeavour

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 276
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2017, 10:25:33 AM »

I think the issues with C1's colour editor would need to be addressed first. No?

A lot of time spent keeping up with the deluge of new cameras, and not enough time devoted to big fixes and improvements.

That's the beauty of using the likes of Hasselblad's Phocus and it's inbuilt colour profiling. Only a handful of camera models to be concerned about.

While I love C1 for my Canon files, its one-size-fits-all commitment is something that would deter me from using it for medium-format and moving from Hasselblad.

D.

Unfortunately I have a Hasselblad body with a P1 back, so Phocus is not much use to me
Logged

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 3752
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2017, 10:44:27 AM »

DTDCH Reproduction Color Guide

^^ The Capture One workflow used by most of the prestigious libraries, museums, and archives in the US (presumably also elsewhere but my expertise is Cultural Heritage in the US).

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 3752
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2017, 10:55:04 AM »

Thats what I use :)

I was just curious why there is no straight support for colour matching in C1, it seems such a straightforward feature (putting the argument of 24 blocks not being enough aside)

In general if you can meaningfully improve your total color response using a 24 patch prosumer target in a non rigorous manner (black walls and ceiling, exactly 45 degree controlled size source illumination, long lens, great measure taken to avoid glare, flare, etc), then your starting color profile was pretty crappy.

Making really great color profiles is a lot harder than it seems to most consumers. Most people get overly impressed with their results because they check the profile using the same colors they used to train/create the profile. That's like me telling you my mothers name was Kay, asking you for my mothers name, and concluding that you know a lot about my family when you say "Kay".

If you're doing a lot of of art reproduction I'd suggest looking into a Phase One back, DT Photon Cultural Heritage LED, and Capture One CH. Thats in use at Library of Congress, Smithsonian, Getty, National Archives, etc.

Frederic_H

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 146
    • www.fredericharster.com
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2017, 08:04:17 AM »

In general if you can meaningfully improve your total color response using a 24 patch prosumer target in a non rigorous manner (black walls and ceiling, exactly 45 degree controlled size source illumination, long lens, great measure taken to avoid glare, flare, etc), then your starting color profile was pretty crappy.
That's exactly the point, building a profile taking into account a specific shooting environment, almost always far from being optimal. On location reproduction work is what most photographers (C1 customers) have to deal with.
Logged

andrewrodney

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13273
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2017, 10:25:07 AM »

It's also worth noting that the profiles generated for LR/ACR from most packages aren't really accurate enough for reproduction work anyway. Each one delivers different results.
That's not an attribute for accurate color per se; we need at the very least, scene referred color which one can muster out of the ACR engine. Output referred color and coming up with actual colorimetric  accuracy is a bitch!  :P
http://www.color.org/scene-referred.xalter
Logged
Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

BobShaw

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1137
    • Aspiration Images
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2017, 10:27:51 PM »

Unfortunately I have a Hasselblad body with a P1 back, so Phocus is not much use to me
Well, you could just sell the H + P1 and buy a Hasselblad body with Hasselblad back and use Phocus with inbuilt Reproduction mode.
That is what I did.
Logged
Website - http://AspirationImages.com
Portrait and Commercial Photography

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10955
    • Echophoto
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2017, 03:16:35 AM »

Hi,

A round check essentially shows that capture was good. So, if a profile can reproduce the 24 patches of the colour checker correctly, compared to the reference data, it indicates that capture was good for it's intended purpose.

You can make a reproduction profile that is accurate, but it would be for specific lighting.

The image below was shot on a P45+, Adobe Standard Profile reproduces the deep blue purple correctly.


With Capture One we got blue instead of deep purple:


Now, you may ask what the real colour is? This shows the colours reconstructed using Patchtool from spectral data:


My Sony A99 gave this representation with Adobe Standard:


But it yielded this one with Capture One:


Now, that is some years ago, 2015. But I still see the same tendencies with C1's profiles.

This is from an old discussion on GetDPI, that also shows the same behavior:
https://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/59120-capture-one-lr6-post700029.html#post700029


In the later case, it seems that choosing "Studio Flash" for WB gets the purples back, but it turns the leaves yellow. The posting uses white balance on a ColorChecker Passport grey card  that is not shown in the image.

To sum up, there are cases where Capture One is not accurate and it is a sensible think to generate your own profiles. But, making good profiles may not be easy.

Best regards
Erik


In general if you can meaningfully improve your total color response using a 24 patch prosumer target in a non rigorous manner (black walls and ceiling, exactly 45 degree controlled size source illumination, long lens, great measure taken to avoid glare, flare, etc), then your starting color profile was pretty crappy.

Making really great color profiles is a lot harder than it seems to most consumers. Most people get overly impressed with their results because they check the profile using the same colors they used to train/create the profile. That's like me telling you my mothers name was Kay, asking you for my mothers name, and concluding that you know a lot about my family when you say "Kay".

If you're doing a lot of of art reproduction I'd suggest looking into a Phase One back, DT Photon Cultural Heritage LED, and Capture One CH. Thats in use at Library of Congress, Smithsonian, Getty, National Archives, etc.
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10955
    • Echophoto
Another point.
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2017, 04:27:34 AM »

Camera profiles can be tricky. Check the gradients in this image:


This image was using a profile generated with DNG Profile Editor using Colour Checker Passport and some manual tuning. It shows some heavy posterisation.

The same image processed with Adobe Standard profile:


No posterisation at all!

The next image is processed in Capture one with C1 built in profile:


Still some posterisation.

The fourth one Lightroom using a profile generated by DCamProf:


All images, side by side: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/MFDLook/


Best regards
Erik
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Dinarius

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1024
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2017, 04:37:33 AM »

Well, you could just sell the H + P1 and buy a Hasselblad body with Hasselblad back and use Phocus with inbuilt Reproduction mode.
That is what I did.

Indeed.  8)

D.
Logged

sebbe

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 89
Re: Why no colour checker?
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2017, 12:31:56 PM »

Making really great color profiles is a lot harder than it seems to most consumers. Most people get overly impressed with their results because they check the profile using the same colors they used to train/create the profile. That's like me telling you my mothers name was Kay, asking you for my mothers name, and concluding that you know a lot about my family when you say "Kay".

I was thinking about this sentence for a few days now.

My biggest issue with the general and standard profile for my camera (a7RII) is, that I'm using different lenses on it. These lenses are from different companies (Voigtländer, Zeiss Loxia, Sony, Leica, Contax) and have a very different character (color, contrast, dynamic range, darks, whites, transitions, ...). If you use them on the same job you can get nuts when it comes to processing them with just the default profiles. For me it's much better to create mediocre profiles for each lens and have a starting point on all lenses that is equally than using an elaborated profile where I don't know anything about (not even the name "Kay"): Was it made for linear use? Which lens? What target? Any wide gammut compression? Some colors ranges changed systematically?

Is there a way to get more information about this? I just want to note I have only the Pro and not the CH version.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up