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Author Topic: A few questions regarding newly purchased Canon Pro-1000  (Read 8025 times)

MabeHall

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Re: A few questions regarding newly purchased Canon Pro-1000
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2017, 09:23:47 am »

Many thanks, Mark! So, I may assume the machine is not behaving abnormally. I’ll learn to live with the time delay between prints. What about replacing supposedly empty cartridges? Are Canon printers similar to Epson in as far as allowing one to print until an ink cartridge is really empty (even if this happens during printing), replace the cartridge, and continue printing without having negatively influenced the quality of the print?
Lawrence
[mgsegal@rogers.com/quote]

Mark, In many of the reviews I have seen comments concerning ink used per print.  With the Canon Pro-1000 this is a totally meaningless number without also adding in the amount of wasted ink which in this printer's case is obscene. I have gone round and round with Canon over this and taken my printer to a service center.  Canon assures me this only happens with the 1st fill but my question is why, followed by I doubt it. And 1st let me say: 1. Yes I know the printer uses approximately 50% of the 1st cartridges to fill the lines, reservoirs, etc. and this is accounted for in my observations. 2. Yes, I keep my printer on all the time. 3. Yes I rarely go long without printing even if this means printing a nozzle check or Qimage unclog pattern. 4. Yes I started with the latest firmware.  I could go on and on with the yeses but I have been through this with Canon and they have no answer. Using the Canon Accounting Manager software I have determined I am wasting 8-10 times the ink I am actually putting on paper!!

There are comments on dpreview concerning excessive waste with this printer with one gentlemen quickly selling his printer because of it. Another gentlemen posted a video of a cleaning cycle that he did not self generate that went on for 6 minutes and consumed 59 ml. of ink. This happen to me too. Just yesterday, I printed 3 prints, using 3.05 ml of ink on paper but consuming 6 ml. total--and I had printed the day before. Again, although this is only double the ink put on paper, my overall consumption is 8-10 times what is on paper.  This is a printer that is very flawed. Yes, the prints are beautiful but any device is designed to purpose, to the consumers needs, and to the competition and with two of these design criteria Canon has failed horribly.

Does the Epson 800 and/or 5000 consume inks like this? The price of Canon ink at $.75 per ml. and 2-3 ml per 17 x 24 print, $1.5-2.25,  sounds good until you multiply that by 8-10 to achieve the true cost per print.  Try $15 to $22.5  17 x 24 in ink alone!

I realize that not everything can be covered in a review but this information needs to get out.

Mabe Hall
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Mark D Segal

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Re: A few questions regarding newly purchased Canon Pro-1000
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2017, 09:29:43 am »

This is a long quote with no comment from yourself. What are you now asking about, specifically?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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MabeHall

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Re: A few questions regarding newly purchased Canon Pro-1000
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2017, 12:17:30 pm »

This is a long quote with no comment from yourself. What are you now asking about, specifically?

The information was in response to Lawerance's qustions concerning cleaning cycle noises with the Pro-1000--yes these are cleaning cycle noises and indicate extreme waste of ink.

My question in the end was in the next to last paragraph. Do the Epson P800 or P5000 waste ink like the Canon Pro-1000?

And last, since you spend a lot of time and effort comparing and analyzing prints from this and other printers I thought you may want to investigate this further or at least be aware of it. I have only seen a few threads on dpreview concerning this waste and it appears very few people realize it is happening although I am begining to suspect that more people know it and want to ignore it for any number of reasons. I read a lot of reviews for the Pro-1000 and P800 before purchasing the Pro-1000 and feel pretty sure if I had known of this ink wastge and resulting cost, I would have made a different purchasing decision.

Mabe
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Mark D Segal

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Re: A few questions regarding newly purchased Canon Pro-1000
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2017, 02:01:30 pm »

OK Mabe, sorry - I see where the confusion was. You should put your material outside the other person's quote, otherwise it all looks like yours. So this means you start your stuff AFTER the QUOTE you see above. If you did that, then something is wrong with the Forum software.

Now to your question.

"Waste of ink": maintenance is not "waste" - it's maintenance, which every printer requires, and to date the manufacturers have devised no other option but to run ink through the head and into the maintenance tank for doing this. Sad but true. So the issue boils down to how much each printer model uses in order to keep itself clean, and secondarily, whether users have any control over this behaviour, and if so how much.

The over-arching problem we all have in developing a good comparative understanding of ink usage for maintenance is that the manufacturers have been completely non-transparent about it, neither Canon nor Epson are prepared to change their policies in this regard (based on responses I've received any time I've raised the issue with them), so customers are left to their own devices to figure out what's going on. The folks I've talked with have given reasons for not releasing such information, one of the more understandable being the varying environmental conditions in which these printers are used. Published estimates would need to be normalized for environmental conditions. This last point would be relevant to consumers of review material whose environmental conditions may not reflect those used for defining the specs, or the conditions in which the reviewers of the printers work and would be doing their own verification. 

Apart from the issue of environmental disconnects, those of us preparing reviews of these printers when they are new products are under some pressure to do the research and publish within a rather short time frame. This is mainly because our readers, potential purchasers, are very keen to learn what's new and whether they should buy. To do a proper research job on ink used for maintenance without guidance from the manufacturers can be done, but it would take a lot of time, because the printers are programmed to use differing amount of inks under different circumstances that warrant cleaning cycles of variable intensity, so we would need to develop all the basic data ourselves, normally invoking a routine of weighing the maintenance tank at frequent intervals and waiting for the occurrence of all these differing conditions, to really understand the behaviour. That could take quite a bit longer than people would like to wait. That's why you don't see much review material on ink used for maintenance. So we are left with the anecdotal experience of individuals who have experienced this or that circumstance and they report these events. It's not a good basis for coming to reliable comparative conclusions.

I've used all three models we're talking about here - the SC-P800, the SC-P5000 and the Pro-1000 and I'm not able to provide solid comparative information about ink used for maintenance, regardless of my own anecdotal observations on how they perform in this regard, because I have not concerned myself post-publication to do all the time-consuming work needed to comprehensively drill down on this matter.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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MarkFarber

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Re: A few questions regarding newly purchased Canon Pro-1000
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2017, 01:06:23 pm »

I own both a 3880 and a Pro1000 (different locations).  Both get consistent though relatively light use.  I'm just beginning to track the Pro1000 ink "problem."

So here are two anecdotes.  Anecdotes are not a substitute for the careful data and the hard work over time that Mark mentions -- but they're not irrelevant either.

First anecdote:  Over 4 years of Epson3880 use, I went through 48 ink cartridges (including the initial set) and have never replaced the maintenance cartridge.  In 3 months of CanonPro1000 use, I went through 1 ink cartridge (CO), though the initial set is almost exhausted, and I have just had to replace the maintenance cartridge.

Second anecdote:  After replacing the maintenance cartridge on the Pro1000, I printed a test pattern as usual.  The printer had been off for perhaps 5 days.  It took almost 10 minutes (I will time it next time) of preparation to print the test pattern, and the brand new maintenance cartridge filled approximately 20%, largely with CO.  I'm attaching two screen grabs of the supply levels, one hour apart.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: A few questions regarding newly purchased Canon Pro-1000
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2017, 02:16:13 pm »

Interesting. There appears to be no visible differences on the graphs of ink levels for all the colours except CO between the two screen grabs. Based on what I've been told about CO usage in this printer, the printer uses it for cleaning the platen because the part that needs cleaning is not user accessible (please see my article on CO usage for this printer); so assuming this information is correct - and I have no reason to believe it isn't, that ten minutes was being spent not only priming the printer, but also cleaning the platen. That's a big whack of CO coming out, but as a new cartridge, not clear how much of that empty space in your screen grab reflects ink that went into the reserve and the lines following upon the cartridge change, which would be used for printing. Generally speaking CO will empty much faster than the other inks because depending on your settings it covers either all or much of the page for every print, whereas no other individual ink would be used to nearly this extent for printing any one photograph. That said, no question CO is a heavy duty item. You can easily check from the accounting manager tool how much ink is being used for printing, print by print, but it is not informative about maintenance ink except for CO whose cleaning volume is included there. Also, I've been advised to leave the printer turned on to avoid the periodic programmed and massive cleaning operation (consumes about 50ml) that may occur upon start-up after a certain period of non-usage.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Dan Wells

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Re: A few questions regarding newly purchased Canon Pro-1000
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2017, 11:16:19 pm »

I'm not sure about the Pro-1000, which may or may not have the same sub-tank design, but you CAN change ink in larger Canons in mid-print, because they have sub-tanks which are filled from the ink cartridges, and which actually supply the ink for printing. I'm not sure what the capacity of the sub-tanks is, but it is substantially more than even the largest print (it might be in the 10-20 ml range or even more). The "I won't print any more" warning comes when the sub-tanks are no longer being filled, so there is much more than a print worth of ink left in the sub-tanks when you swap the cartridge. Epson uses pressurized cartridges instead of sub-tanks, so there isn't the substantial buffer.

Dan
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unesco

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Re: A few questions regarding newly purchased Canon Pro-1000
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2017, 02:40:35 am »

I'm not sure about the Pro-1000, which may or may not have the same sub-tank design, but you CAN change ink in larger Canons in mid-print, because they have sub-tanks which are filled from the ink cartridges, and which actually supply the ink for printing. I'm not sure what the capacity of the sub-tanks is, but it is substantially more than even the largest print (it might be in the 10-20 ml range or even more). The "I won't print any more" warning comes when the sub-tanks are no longer being filled, so there is much more than a print worth of ink left in the sub-tanks when you swap the cartridge. Epson uses pressurized cartridges instead of sub-tanks, so there isn't the substantial buffer.

Dan

Subtanks are about 30 ml capacity each. According to documentation, it is not recommended to exchange carts until they are fully empty and printer asks to do so. I am not sure if it can happen during printing process, probably yes (as in 17 inch Epsons).
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Panagiotis

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Re: A few questions regarding newly purchased Canon Pro-1000
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2017, 05:55:36 am »

I own both a 3880 and a Pro1000 (different locations).  Both get consistent though relatively light use.  I'm just beginning to track the Pro1000 ink "problem."

So here are two anecdotes.  Anecdotes are not a substitute for the careful data and the hard work over time that Mark mentions -- but they're not irrelevant either.

First anecdote:  Over 4 years of Epson3880 use, I went through 48 ink cartridges (including the initial set) and have never replaced the maintenance cartridge.  In 3 months of CanonPro1000 use, I went through 1 ink cartridge (CO), though the initial set is almost exhausted, and I have just had to replace the maintenance cartridge.

Second anecdote:  After replacing the maintenance cartridge on the Pro1000, I printed a test pattern as usual.  The printer had been off for perhaps 5 days.  It took almost 10 minutes (I will time it next time) of preparation to print the test pattern, and the brand new maintenance cartridge filled approximately 20%, largely with CO.  I'm attaching two screen grabs of the supply levels, one hour apart.

The ink level bars are not accurate. First they start moving very fast but then they slow down. I am pretty sure that between the two screenshots the printer used all the cartridges for cleaning and not only the CO. Don't forget also to update to the latest firmware which addresses partially the CO ink consumption.

I am at the third set of cartridges. I've changed four of them. So 28 cartridges in a year and I am in the middle of the third maintenance tank.

My ink consumption notes (after the first 9 months) here:
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=117644.msg1002452#msg1002452
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