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Author Topic: Epson SureColor P800  (Read 22180 times)

BobDavid

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Epson SureColor P800
« on: September 17, 2017, 12:17:37 am »

I've been using Epson Stylus Pro wide format printers since 2006. I've owned a 9800, 7800, 9900, and a 7890. I loved the 7890 for its reliability and output. When my wife and I decided to move from Florida to Colorado, I sold the 7890. I didn't want to risk shipping it 1,800 miles. ... And at this point, a 17" printer is sufficient for my needs. I ultimately decided on the SureColor P800.

Going from a pro printer to a prosumer printer didn't thrill me. Epson's professional 17" printers are over twice the price of the P800. When I owned and operated a studio, the P800 would not have been up to the task, neither would any 17" printer.

There are really only two options for a 17" prosumer printer: 1) Canon imagePROGRAF PRO-1000; 2) Epson P800. 

The P800 has exceeded my expectations: It makes stunning prints. The coolest thing about the printer is that I let it manage output rather than Photoshop. Who would have ever thunk that that would work. Truth is, I think the Epson algorithms are superior to Photoshop's.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 12:21:51 am by BobDavid »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2017, 01:42:00 am »

Actually, there are three options for 17" printers: you didn't mention the SC-P5000.

I've reviewed both the SC-P800 and the SC-P5000 on this website, and I have tested "printer manages color". It's not bad, but it's not quite up to a high quality profile used in a proper colour management configuration.

You are correct that the P800 makes very high quality prints.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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BobDavid

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2017, 03:15:28 pm »

Actually, there are three options for 17" printers: you didn't mention the SC-P5000.

I've reviewed both the SC-P800 and the SC-P5000 on this website, and I have tested "printer manages color". It's not bad, but it's not quite up to a high quality profile used in a proper colour management configuration.

You are correct that the P800 makes very high quality prints.

The SC-P5000 was not a viable candidate. Orange and green are a waste for printing photos. Now if I wanted to match PMS colors, the SC-P5000 is a good choice.

I compared output from the "canned" Epson ICC profile for Ultra Premium Lustre Photo Paper using PS to manage the output versus letting the printer manage output. The latter has more snap. ... I have fairly good profiling tools, so I'll try a custom profile. ... My experience with the 7890 was the canned Epson profiles were better than profiles I created and those  from my dealer. Of course, Photoshop managed the output. 
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2017, 03:27:42 pm »

The SC-P5000 was not a viable candidate. Orange and green are a waste for printing photos. Now if I wanted to match PMS colors, the SC-P5000 is a good choice.

I compared output from the "canned" Epson ICC profile for Ultra Premium Lustre Photo Paper using PS to manage the output versus letting the printer manage output. The latter has more snap. ... I have fairly good profiling tools, so I'll try a custom profile. ... My experience with the 7890 was the canned Epson profiles were better than profiles I created and those  from my dealer. Of course, Photoshop managed the output.

I suppose you mean "not a viable candidate" for you, not in general.

Orange and Green are not necessarily a waste for printing photos. They add gamut. Whether it's needed depends on the colours in your photos.

"More Snap" may or may not be a good thing - again depends on the image. A good profile lets you dial-in the extent of vibrancy/saturation/contrast best suited to the photo according to taste. With a colour-managed work flow you have this choice. With Printer Managing Color it is not so malleable.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2017, 05:43:15 pm »

With Printer Managing Color it is not so malleable.
to me letting printer manage colors means display to print matching can get very challenging. So while output might be nice, it also becomes somewhat unpredictable and difficult to fine tune. 

And good luck with those finished files if you decide to switch to a different printer, especially a different brand of printer at some point in the future.
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BobDavid

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2017, 04:09:24 am »

For now, I print exclusively on Epson Ultra Premium Luster Photo Paper. So with that in mind, it makes sense that a SureColor printer is optimized for Epson luster media. The S/N ratio is higher than it is when PS manages the output.

Methodology: Start out by developing an A7r2 RAW file in C1. Export as an aRGB 16-bit TIFF. Open the TIFF in Photoshop CC for tweaking.( I use an Eizo CS2420 ColorEdge monitor / NVIDIA K6000 combo). No need to soft proof, the monitor is setup for aRGB. In PS, go to print settings > Series Properties and specify Ultra Premium Photo Paper.

Drag the cursor over print and click.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2017, 04:52:08 am »

For now, I print exclusively on Epson Ultra Premium Luster Photo Paper. So with that in mind, it makes sense that a SureColor printer is optimized for Epson luster media. The S/N ratio is higher than it is when PS manages the output.

Methodology: Start out by developing an A7r2 RAW file in C1. Export as an aRGB 16-bit TIFF. Open the TIFF in Photoshop CC for tweaking.( I use an Eizo CS2420 ColorEdge monitor / NVIDIA K6000 combo). No need to soft proof, the monitor is setup for aRGB. In PS, go to print settings > Series Properties and specify Ultra Premium Photo Paper.

Drag the cursor over print and click.

I don't know what you mean by "S/N ratio" in this context.
Parts of the gamut of that paper used with the SC-P800 exceed aRGB. You may be better served using ProPhoto if you were to opt for application colour management.
I would re-emphasize what Wayne and I advised in respect of the comparative quality and advantages of a good profile and application colour management versus printer management.
Whatever colour space the monitor is set-up for, that doesn't deal with the purpose or need for soft-proofing. Soft-proofing is for the printer profile, the paper and the printer. It is useful with application colour management. You have much less control with Printer management.

In case you haven't done so yet, I recommend that you watch the "Camera to Print" videos done by Michael Reichmann and Jeff Schewe.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2017, 11:00:02 am »

to me letting printer manage colors means display to print matching can get very challenging. So while output might be nice, it also becomes somewhat unpredictable and difficult to fine tune. 
Yup. Forget soft proofing and controlling the rendering intent per image and any output specific edits you desire, based on that soft proof.
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digitaldog

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2017, 11:01:59 am »

No need to soft proof, the monitor is setup for aRGB.
Sorry, that simply isn't true. The display's gamut, which is mostly smaller than the printers you are asking about requires soft proofing IF your goal is a decent print to display match while controlling the rendering intent based on the image content itself.
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BobDavid

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2017, 12:13:30 pm »

Give it a try: Epson SureColor printer, Epson Ultra Premium Luster Photo Paper, monitor and file displaying aRGB. ... Sure the printer's color gamut is wider than the monitor's.

Try this approach, then report back. I'm curious to hear about results rather than theory.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 12:17:04 pm by BobDavid »
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digitaldog

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2017, 12:16:14 pm »

Give it a try: Epson SureColor, Epson Ultra Premium Luster Photo Paper, monitor and file displaying aRGB. ... Sure the printer's color gamut is wider than the monitor's.
I have! And I see a massive and visible difference in the soft proof ON so what you suggest doesn't make sense to me. I see a visual difference in many, many images toggling the soft proof from Saturation to RelCol to Perceptual and yet you see NONE of this. So explain how it works for me.
Do I need to post screen captures showing the visible differences in one image where a soft proof for the Epson is on with three different rendering intents versus off to illustrate that indeed, there IS a difference to be seen; on screen and on the print?
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BobDavid

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2017, 12:18:46 pm »

Try "absolute"
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digitaldog

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2017, 12:36:19 pm »

Try "absolute"
Now why would I do that?
Plus, the color appearance again changes using that rendering intent that is seen soft proofing that you do not see by avoiding it.

So can you explain how when soft proofing on a calibrated and profiled display, I see four different previews based on the conversion to the output device, you see none but state that by the display being in Adobe RGB (1998) (questionable), there's no need to soft proof.
The profiles previews are all lies?
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digitaldog

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2017, 12:42:17 pm »

Try this approach, then report back. I'm curious to hear about results rather than theory.
It failed. I'm curious to hear about your results where they all match, no need for soft proofing, rather than theory. Note you're viewing wide gamut screen shots reduced to sRGB to post here so the visual differences are even greater than you see below! NOTE that paper and ink simulation is NOT on which provides far, far greater visual differences based on the output profile!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 12:45:21 pm by digitaldog »
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digitaldog

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2017, 12:47:34 pm »

Soft proof with just Adobe RGB (so no soft proof to output) vs. soft proof using RelCol and paper/ink simulation which is vastly closer to matching the print!
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BobDavid

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2017, 01:19:18 pm »

I'm viewing your tests on a Surface 3, so it's hard to differentiate your tests. ... Duplicate my workflow and see what you get.
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BobDavid

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2017, 01:25:59 pm »

Well, I don't want to get argumentive. But the specific workflow I mentioned, works. By the way, the Eizo is calibrated to match the color temp of the Solux lamp in degrees K.

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digitaldog

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2017, 01:27:48 pm »

I'm viewing your tests on a Surface 3, so it's hard to differentiate your tests. ... Duplicate my workflow and see what you get.
You're not even viewing on a color managed device, no wonder you can't soft proof!
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digitaldog

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2017, 01:28:41 pm »

Well, I don't want to get argumentive.
Just prove what you wrote makes sense now and is correct (it isn't):
No need to soft proof, the monitor is setup for aRGB.
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digitaldog

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Re: Epson SureColor P800
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2017, 01:29:48 pm »

Duplicate my workflow and see what you get.
I did, and again, since you apparently didn't read what I wrote earlier: IT FAILED.
So again, the various and differing soft proof previews I see are a lie? And what you're seeing without soft proofing isn't?
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