Future Nikon Mirrorless to be Full Frame

[davidgp]

Hi,

I think it was a very long discussion around this forum about if rumored Mirrorless Nikon camera will be Full Frame or not (I don't remember the thread... probably the long one about D850 and many other things ). Looks like Nikon confirmed in an interview that it will be a Full Frame camera: http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/nikon-confirms-new-mirrorless-sytem-camera-will-full-frame/

Regards,

David

[BernardLanguillier]

No surprise for me. I really would not be able to understand Nikon going APS-C mirrorless at this point in time.

Many photographers here (not saying it applies to you David) have apparently still not understood that the ambition of Nikon is to deliver the best 35mm equipment available, meaning the best performing (and probably most expensive) equipment in 35mm format. They have been saying it loud and clear for years though.

Whether they succeed or not is a different topic all together, but ambition is what defines strategy. And in late 2017, an ambitious mirrorless strategy can only be Full frame. This is simply logical.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Chairman Bill]

... in late 2017, an ambitious mirrorless strategy can only be Full frame. This is simply logical.

You're wrong, Bernard, and somebody will be along shortly to explain to you why all we really need is micro 4/3

[BernardLanguillier]

You're wrong, Bernard, and somebody will be along shortly to explain to you why all we really need is micro 4/3

I am all ears.

Cheers,
Bernard

[davidgp]

No surprise for me. I really would not be able to understand Nikon going APS-C mirrorless at this point in time.

Many photographers here (not saying it applies to you David) have apparently still not understood that the ambition of Nikon is to deliver the best 35mm equipment available, meaning the best performing (and probably most expensive) equipment in 35mm format. They have been saying it loud and clear for years though.

Whether they succeed or not is a different topic all together, but ambition is what defines strategy. And in late 2017, an ambitious mirrorless strategy can only be Full frame. This is simply logical.

Cheers,
Bernard

Hi,

Yes, I have always said that the strategy is to go full-frame... or even higher like Fuji or Hasselblad did.

Yes, I agree that with ASP-C or M43 you can get very nice and pro cameras... but in 35 mm or higher the margins are bigger... economically makes more sense, you sell less, but you get more money from each unit.

Also, in M43 you have Olympus and Panasonic, in ASP-C you have Fuji and Sony, in 35 mm just Sony... less competition for people considering 35 mm mirrorless (probably forgetting someone... and I'm omitting Leica intentionally...)

Regards,

David



http://dgpfotografia.com

[Paulo Bizarro]

Most expensive is still the purvey of Leica. They already have a 35mm MILC system.

[davidgp]

Most expensive is still the purvey of Leica. They already have a 35mm MILC system.

Yes, they have the SL, and we have Vieri that is showing us what he is capable of do with that camera... but... they are still selling very few of them (this is my impression... I don't have number to back me up). I don't think Nikon managers are too worried about Leica when they enter the mirrorless 35mm market.

[BernardLanguillier]

Yes, they have the SL, and we have Vieri that is showing us what he is capable of do with that camera... but... they are still selling very few of them (this is my impression... I don't have number to back me up). I don't think Nikon managers are too worried about Leica when they enter the mirrorless 35mm market.

Leica has pretty much priced itself out of relevance with the SL in my view.

It is a nice camera, in many ways superior to the Sony a7, but their choice of lenses and inability/unwillingness to build a lens line up probably shows that they have second thoughts about the system.

In my view Nikon will release 2 lines of lenses for their FF mirrorless at the time of introduction to convey a clear message that they have understood the 2 values of mirrorless:
- high end ones (the 35mm f1.2, 50mm f0.9,...) that will be price no object technical demonstrators of what they can do starting from a blank sheet of paper. I believe their target is better than Otus,
- compact ones probably opening at f2.8 that will address the compact aspect.

They will simply replicate what they have been doing with DSLR lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard

[davidgp]

In my view Nikon will release 2 lines of lenses for their FF mirrorless at the time of introduction to convey a clear message that they have understood the 2 values of mirrorless:
- high end ones (the 35mm f1.2, 50mm f0.9,...) that will be price no object technical demonstrators of what they can do starting from a blank sheet of paper. I believe their target is better than Otus,
- compact ones probably opening at f2.8 that will address the compact aspect.

I'm assuming you are talking primes, an f2.8 zoom will still be quite big... 

Anyway, that it is the typical strategy every manufacturer is following, several lines of lenses to try to appeal different profiles.

[Geods]

Im afraid Nikon will be too conservative with their FF mirrorless system. It needs to include every available technology. This was not the case with the new D850 - no IBIS nor high resolution mode - the half-priced Pentax has them, why not Nikon? The Sony mirrorless products have IBIS, so why didn't the D850? The Nikon 1 system was fantastic technologically, but wasn't a professional/advanced amateur system in that there was no weather sealing and some models shipped in multiple colors - indicative of toys and not something a pro will necessarily want to carry, nor be associated with.

What I'm looking for in a Nikon mirrorless system:

Outstanding weather resistance on the bodies, lenses, and accessories (no exceptions);
IBIS;
High resolution mode (sensor shift);
built in wifi, bluetooth, GPS, and compass;
(oh, and since it has GPS, the user should at least be able to do simple navigation from the display with a global map);
gyros/levels in every axis, so I know level and can easily use it as a copy camera or pointed parallel to a ceiling;
smart lenses (like micro-4/3) where lens corrections are effectively built in, with the best manual focus feel, and smart focus stacking;
a mark on every lens that indicates the approximate nodal point;
a collection of small (Otus quality) prime lenses that are weather sealed for travel/expedition; and,
As well as many other out of the box things, how about a dedicated monochrome camera!!!!

[BernardLanguillier]

Yes, I agree with you, they will be conservative featurwise and will prioritize a streamlined design with their first body. IBIS will probably be there though.

This is a key requirement for lens simplicity.

The D850 won't need IBIS to sell well.

Cheers,
Bernard

[rdonson]

It would be interesting to learn how many cameras Nikon sells to existing Nikon customers vs. first time Nikon buyers (that includes switching from another brand and those new to enthusiast and pro cameras).  Likewise for Canon. 

[BJL]

The news is a bit dubious. Firstly, here is a machine trsnslation, where the words come out as "we must consider doing full-frame", which only sounds like 36x24mm format being on the table as an option, not decided. Maybe the software added the key softening word "consideration", but it seems more likely that the human translator omitted it to conform to his hopes or expectations.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Finfo.xitek.com%2FInterviews%2F201709%2F13-232034.html

Secondly, the so-called Nikon official is retired or semi-retired; he is no longer working in product development, and seems to be speaking mostly of his own hopes.

Thirdly, he sounds like a grumpy backward-looking curmudgeon: most of the interview is about how the Df is too new-fangled for him, so he modded his to be more completely 1960's in style!

Fourthly, do you really thing that vital information about product plans comes out through third-rate channels like this interview?

[BernardLanguillier]

Agreed, the main objective of this interview is to promote that site.

But even without it a FF mirrorless Nikon just makes sense.

I would personnally probably mostly desinvest from Nikon ownership and move to Sony if Nikon were to announce a half baked APS-C body similar to a Canon M.

Cheers,
Bernard

[32BT]

I would personnally probably mostly desinvest from Nikon ownership and move to Sony if Nikon were to announce a half baked APS-C body similar to a Canon M.

And which part would be the problematic bit: the "half baked" part, or the "APS-C" part?

[BernardLanguillier]

And which part would be the problematic bit: the "half baked" part, or the "APS-C" part?

Both. The M is a very decent camera for an APS-C but the lenses line up is way too limited.

It was obviously designed by Canon as a super compact for their DSLRs users, not as a stand alone system, hence the half baked.

Cheers,
Bernard

[32BT]

Both. The M is a very decent camera for an APS-C but the lenses line up is way too limited.

It was obviously designed by Canon as a super compact for their DSLRs users, not as a stand alone system, hence the half baked.

I think that Fuji is proving very decisively that APS-C is not the problem. Their lens lineup seems to proof that a combination of "great optical performance" and "compact" can be achieved and thus the advantage of mirrorless (and smaller format) actually does become a reality.

During my recent searches for either compact or small system cameras, I noticed that Canon seems to have a problem with the coating of their lenses. For traditional FF offerings there obviously is not a problem, but in the reduced size offerings, I distinctly find chromatic aberrations that are simply not correctable in post and probably shouldn't be there to begin with. I am not entirely sure, but I currently believe that the coatings are to blame.

If the latter is true, then it probably shows that redesigning lenses for mirrorless might proof to be a bigger challenge than one would think. Clearly, one of the strong points of Nikon used to be their lenses, and well-designed, mirrorless- & format-specific lenses is probably a must. How long will it take Nikon to offer a new set of lenses, as complete as Fuji's current offering? 

[kers]

.... Clearly, one of the strong points of Nikon used to be their lenses, and well-designed, mirrorless- & format-specific lenses is probably a must. How long will it take Nikon to offer a new set of lenses, as complete as Fuji's current offering?

Fuji has chosen a clear strategy with small sensors and cameras with good quality on the one side and excellent MF quality and lenses on the other side.
But i think all Nikon has to do is develop some lightweight and small lenses ( f2.8 ) for use on mirrorless FF that can be combined with the all existing F-bajonet lenses.
Imagine a mirrorless d850 and look at the nikon1 serie.
Combine these specs and a FF Nikon mirrorless could be around the corner. But first they have to sell the d850.

[BernardLanguillier]

I think that Fuji is proving very decisively that APS-C is not the problem. Their lens lineup seems to proof that a combination of "great optical performance" and "compact" can be achieved and thus the advantage of mirrorless (and smaller format) actually does become a reality.

Exactly, there is already a very good APS-C system out there, why would Nikon choose to go for that segment?

- They don't have a great DSLR APS-C lenses line-up
- The margins are smaller
- They will have a very hard time to generate buzz and attention and will be perceived as followers

Any strategist will tell you that the only way forward is up, meaning FF.

Cheers,
Bernard

[hogloff]

Combine these specs and a FF Nikon mirrorless could be around the corner.

Yeh...if only it were that easy...just combine the specs...add a bit of salt and shake...presto.