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Author Topic: P1 trichromatic  (Read 5349 times)

Wayne Fox

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2017, 05:52:59 PM »

So it's the same 100mp IQ sensor but with tighter filters, that drop sensitivity by 2/3 of a stop? (The IQ100 has a base iso of 50 or... 100?)

From Phase One’s site

“Using a new CMOS sensor and Bayer Filter color technology,”

https://www.phaseone.com/en/Products/Camera-Systems/IQ-Digital-Backs/IQ3-100MP-Trichromatic.aspx

RDMAX

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2017, 02:30:50 PM »

I am sure the "old" IQ3100 back is good enough. These cameras are so darn heavy that it should be on tripod anyway.

For a five year warranty, it damn better not be obsolete anytime soon...
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tim wolcott

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2017, 11:23:07 PM »

Just spent time in Denmark.  It is very good.  Color and definition is amazing.  Its definitely a break through technology and is good.  It also will help with the black and white conversion for far more dramatic densities and control of the colors within the black and white conversion software.  The real nice thing is the skies don't have that slight purple magenta cast to them.  colors are bright and real with no degradation.   Tim
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 11:26:12 PM by tim wolcott »
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narikin

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2017, 10:13:38 PM »

Just spent time in Denmark.  It is very good.  Color and definition is amazing.  Its definitely a break through technology and is good.  It also will help with the black and white conversion for far more dramatic densities and control of the colors within the black and white conversion software.  The real nice thing is the skies don't have that slight purple magenta cast to them.  colors are bright and real with no degradation.   Tim

Good to hear. I plan on trying one out soon.

Realised a way of looking at this is:

You now have a choice - CMOS has given us 2+ stops extra sensitivity over older CCD sensors, and you can take that and get a great 200asa image to freeze action, handhold, work in lower light, greater DoF, etc, etc. Or you can give up those 2 stops, for a tight band on-chip filter array, that will take you back to 50iso, but with world class color rendition. The choice is yours.

Phase obviously recognised this development option, and hence we have the Trichromatic back. Its up to you which of these 2 choices suits your work. I suspect I'll be staying with the IQ3100, but respect people who feel otherwise.
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araucaria

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2017, 04:37:02 AM »

The real nice thing is the skies don't have that slight purple magenta cast to them.  colors are bright and real with no degradation.   Tim
Oh this is something that has me bothering me forever. I've never had a CCD back, did this also happen on these?
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Paul2660

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2017, 08:31:07 AM »

You still have to ask yourself, is it worth 20K or so to get a slightly better blue? 

Are other areas being impacted? You get slightly better color (degree of which is still not really quantified by P1) do you loose dynamic range since possibly less light is being captured by the new design.  Noting lower base ISO of 35.  It will be interesting to see some side by side shots, in raw that can be compared. 

For me WB on a P1 back CCD or CMOS has always been a total crap shoot, unlike the WB from a DSLR style camera. 
Shoot a P1 into the sun and the scene is pretty much always way too yellow.  It can be totally corrected in post with C1 or LR. 

As for the blue skies, I have heard this comment a few times now.  And I agree at times the capture from the IQ3100 can give a slight magenta/red cast to the sky, however in post I mostly find I am adding a slight amount of red to my skies (hue) which will effect the blue more to my liking.  The Color editor in C1 is vastly superior to LR's at least to me, and allows for a huge amount of recovery.  I guess if the cost to upgrade was less I would consider it, as the thought of 150MP coming next year, I know I am out of that, as I just don't need the additional overhead.  My point being if you use C1 the slight color cast in the sky is an easy fix.  May still be an issue for a art repro shooter however.

It's actually too bad P1 won't spend a bit of time on their auto mask tool, and allow it to have the same degree of accuracy that the LR version has.  Working a blue sky around tree limbs in C1 is not anywhere as easy as in LR with it's auto mask.  C1's just can't handle irregular edges.

Paul Caldwell
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cgarnerhome

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2017, 09:22:03 AM »

I'm with you Paul as I see no need to move beyond IQ3100 unless there are significant other improvements.  For me, the biggest improvement would be a better AWB to save me post processing time.

Jim Kasson

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Peaky CFA = more accurate color?
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2017, 11:00:03 AM »

You now have a choice - CMOS has given us 2+ stops extra sensitivity over older CCD sensors, and you can take that and get a great 200asa image to freeze action, handhold, work in lower light, greater DoF, etc, etc. Or you can give up those 2 stops, for a tight band on-chip filter array, that will take you back to 50iso, but with world class color rendition. The choice is yours.

I don't understand why tight CFAs yield better color for P1. I haven't been paid to do color science for many years, but in the 90s the conventional wisdom was the opposite: the way to get closer to Luther-Ives was to make the filters broader, but that had the unfortunate side effect of reducing the SNR because of increased cross terms in the compromise matrix.

In one respect, it's clear that peaky CFA responses are going to be problematic for accurate color with small cross terms: the red channel needs a peak in near the UV cutoff to "see" spectral violet.

It sure would be nice to see the spectral response of the three channels of the new P1 camera. The posted responses in the promotional material are obviously horribly inaccurate.

Jim

NancyP

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2017, 01:29:35 PM »

It will be interesting to see if any small-format specialty cameras try this route.
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capital

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2017, 10:35:21 PM »

It will be interesting to see if any small-format specialty cameras try this route.
My thought is perhaps that is what Canon did with their 5Ds/r line with its "improved color" CFA and sacrificing higher ISOs above 6400.
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eronald

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Re: Peaky CFA = more accurate color?
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2017, 07:44:24 PM »

Maybe multispectral capture is an idea whose time has come.

Edmund

I don't understand why tight CFAs yield better color for P1. I haven't been paid to do color science for many years, but in the 90s the conventional wisdom was the opposite: the way to get closer to Luther-Ives was to make the filters broader, but that had the unfortunate side effect of reducing the SNR because of increased cross terms in the compromise matrix.

In one respect, it's clear that peaky CFA responses are going to be problematic for accurate color with small cross terms: the red channel needs a peak in near the UV cutoff to "see" spectral violet.

It sure would be nice to see the spectral response of the three channels of the new P1 camera. The posted responses in the promotional material are obviously horribly inaccurate.

Jim
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 07:47:58 PM by eronald »
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tim wolcott

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2017, 09:34:42 PM »

Here is shot from the new Trichromatic.  Didn't have much time in between all the rain but I wanted raindrop for this one.  Tim
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narikin

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2017, 10:45:19 PM »

I had a loaner last weekend too, for comparison to my IQ100.

A bit underwhelmed, have to say. Probably my fault - had naively high expectations of what the super-color back would amount to.

Yes it is a more color-accurate, but it is very fine where you notice the differences. Blue skies for sure, and some better differentiation in greens, and less color cast in shadows were what I noticed. But even if you were a landscape photographer who worked with green rain forests under blue skies, don't think people are going to be stopped in their tracks by your images vs those on a regular IQ100. They're not. A good number may even prefer the regular backs 'look'.

It's really for technical work, art repro etc, where its accuracy is a true achievement, and to be applauded. It is a definite step in photographic verisimilitude, but not a quantum leap for photography, at least not to my eyes. Last one that gave me that jolt was the Foveon Sigma sensors, which shows it is possible, just very very rare.

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tim wolcott

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2017, 11:11:41 PM »

Totally disagree with the idea some would want the old 100MP back.  If your going to buy one you buy the one with the more accurate color.  You would have to be a fool to buy the other.  I wish I had the new one, The colors are far more accurate, the yellow are amazing as well as the other colors you mentioned.  It also would be great for BW conversion images.  I will get it.  I was in Denmark meeting everyone there and I had to shoot it.  Tim
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Kevin Raber

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2017, 12:28:08 AM »

I'm in Copenhagen and will spend the next 2 days with Phase One.  They have me on a jammed schedule but I'll be doing videos and will be able to come back with some more information on the new features.  Kind of like old home week for me.  Drew tells me the color is pretty astounding.  Cross my fingers for some good weather and I'll try to some shooting with it on Tuesday.
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narikin

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2017, 09:52:33 AM »

Totally disagree with the idea some would want the old 100MP back.  If your going to buy one you buy the one with the more accurate color.  You would have to be a fool to buy the other.  I wish I had the new one, The colors are far more accurate, the yellow are amazing as well as the other colors you mentioned.  It also would be great for BW conversion images.  I will get it.  I was in Denmark meeting everyone there and I had to shoot it.  Tim

Tim, well we must be weighing up different things.

A vital factor for me is the ISO speed sacrifice involved in the trichromatic back. Close to 2 stops.

For some people (like myself) it was a huge step from the IQ180 with its 35/50 best quality to the IQ100 with 100/200 best quality. It meant I could freeze action (1/1000 at f5.6 in sunlight) it meant I could still shoot handheld in lower light, it meant more depth of field (f11 instead of 5.6), it meant more freedom photographically.  The trichro I agree gives better color, but the speed drop for this fine quality gain makes it too big a cost for me

We are all different in our photo needs, and mine are doubtless not yours. If I was on a tripod all the time or in a studio with flash, I would feel the same as you!

Thanks.

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Paul2660

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2017, 10:49:33 AM »

So I guess the previous backs by P1 are all "inaccurate", in regards to color?  Do you feel that the cost of 35 to 45K for such backs is now a waste, unless you have the most current version? 

This whole issue of "more accurate color" really amazes me. 

How much more accurate, 1% 2%, 10% 50%, ?? I can't see this amount of inaccuracy being more than 5%, and if it's greater then shame on P1.  Other companies with much less expensive cameras (Hasselblad, Sony, Nikon, Canon, Fuji) all are claiming "great color accuracy" 

Looking at images I have been able to download I can't really see a great deal of difference.  No more than could be corrected in post processing. 

Now bring into the fact that for the ability to gain this great amount of color accuracy, you will loose 1 stop, 1/2 stop? (it's still not quantified). 

Which do you feel is harder to fix in post, excessive noise? or slightly inaccurate color (blue with a red tint) or slight difference in greens.  BTW I believe that pretty much everyone has a different view of the same scene in regards to color anyway.  Back to my question.  The IQ3100 (mine) still has noise issues at base ISO of 50, and if this back is now moving down to 35 for the new base, I would feel it's safe to assume that your higher ISO ranges are now going to be compromised to some degree.

Maybe if P1 had added a few other things:

tilting screen (huge benefit for me)
better 100% review with Capture Pilot (you still can't get a clean 100% review on the iPhone with Capture Pilot from any P1 back)
Focus peaking (should not be that hard to incorporate)
100% coordination between back and camera (even with the XF last time I checked you still need the camera top LCD for many setup scenarios)
More weather sealing (not sure if this can be done to current back designed but long overdue for field work)

The cost might be worth the consideration, but to say "more accurate color" and that is worth the cost of 45K for me is bit of a stretch. 

You can also expect no LR/ Adobe support on this New more accurate back for at least 1 year, same as with the IQ3100.  I realize that this statement to purists is shocking (the use of other raw converter than C1 on P1 raw) but C1 is long lacking in many areas that Adobe has long since improved on. 

Things like HDR exposure blending, pano creation, Auto mask (C1's is pretty much worthless in outdoor scenes and has been since inception).

I am sure for those that can own it, it will be the best there ever was.  But to spend such on outlay just based in "improved color accuracy"?  To me is excessive. 

Paul Caldwell
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Wayne Fox

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2017, 02:48:24 PM »


You can also expect no LR/ Adobe support on this New more accurate back for at least 1 year, same as with the IQ3100.
I believe the issue with the IQ3 100 was the raw file format which Adobe had a hard time reverse engineering, perhaps with the new back all that will be required is new profiles. Also curious about the noise issues.  I’m really not seeing it with my IQ3 100.I”ve been pretty happy with shadow noise performance ... compared to the CCD backs especially.

As far as “more” accurate color, some need it. I suppose it depends on what you shoot as to how much more accurate it is.  To be honest getting purer blues in sky would be nice. Not nice enough to entice me, but perhaps when the IQ4 150 comes out the added color accuracy will be included. Phase’s relentless pursuit of color purity has been something they’ve always stated was their number one priority.

This sounds to me like Phases standard upgrade cycle.  IQ280 wasn’t a big jump from the 180, the 380 not much of a jump from the 280. I’m not planning on upgrading now, but it has been nearly 2 years since the IQ3 100 came out, this is the “new” version of the back.  I don’t believe the IQ3 100 is being discontinued, but it is 6k less than the new back.


« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 11:16:36 PM by Wayne Fox »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2017, 07:18:26 PM »

Innovation is always great, but it really feels like P1 had to release something to make the news and generate much needed revenue.

Odds are the IQ4-150 is taking longer than expected which drove the current release.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!

FelixWu

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Re: P1 trichromatic
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2017, 06:42:42 AM »

Innovation is always great, but it really feels like P1 had to release something to make the news and generate much needed revenue.

Odds are the IQ4-150 is taking longer than expected which drove the current release.

Cheers,
Bernard
Granted P1 will have to milk the more colour accurate photographers first, then further milk those who realise their 100MP backs are too low in resolution.
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