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Author Topic: Stills vs Video  (Read 2238 times)

opgr

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Stills vs Video
« on: September 11, 2017, 01:55:18 PM »

At some point they will probably decide that the amount of effort required to support video in still image camera's simply merits a device of its own, then somebody will wake up and tell the world we need two devices, one that's ergonomically better suited for video, and one that is better suited for still image capture.

At which point we finally get better and simpler, but probably not cheaper devices to work with.

It's too bad they probably won't fall for that argument: if you slash video from a photocamera, you slash half the functionality, so it should be half the price!?
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Oscar

jrsforums

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2017, 05:24:21 PM »

For a digital camera with live view and/or mirrorless, it is relatively little additional hardware expense to add video.
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opgr

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2017, 06:04:14 PM »

For a digital camera with live view and/or mirrorless, it is relatively little additional hardware expense to add video.

Yes, likely true especially considering that most videocapability is already baked into the chip.  And at one point it probably did make sense to distinguish oneself with videocapabilities. However, it seems lately the competition in the videocapabilities is becoming detrimental to development in both directions.

High quality video in a midrange camera seems overkill. I see two types of usecases:
1. The tourist shooter who likes to make the occasional videoclip
2. The professional shooter who really requires high-end results for commissioned projects etc.

How are either of these served by say a Panasonic LX100 or a Fuji X-T20 doing superior 4k video?
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Joe Towner

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2017, 05:47:27 PM »

It's called the Nikon Df, remember it?  It didn't do video, and I don't think anyone will release a follow up or competitor.

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Rob C

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2017, 05:51:31 AM »

It's called the Nikon Df, remember it?  It didn't do video, and I don't think anyone will release a follow up or competitor.


Yes, I do remember it, and for a brief period thought that it would be a "good idea".

However, they blew the opportunity of a nice screen with grid and split-image focussing, the main thing that I miss with today's Nikons. Yes, I can have an electronic grid, but the main item is unavailable. Consequently, my cash remained in the bank, and the card company continues sending me information about how convenient card purchasing can be... I use it for too many things already; what's the matter with these companies?

OTOH, Leica has produce back-to-basics models of the M at high premiums...

Video holds no attraction for me at all. It's difficult enough getting good single images; who needs to fight for extended ones that move!

;-)

Rob

P.S.

Oscar, we could be considered trolls for writing this stuff in this thread!
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 05:56:24 AM by Rob C »
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opgr

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2017, 07:59:09 AM »

Oscar, we could be considered trolls for writing this stuff in this thread!

I think we're safe on this forum, but it probably is considered sacrilege elsewhere.

Video is just a failure to produce a comprehensive still. And unfortunately, most videos are merely 24 of those failures per second...
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Oscar

Pete Berry

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2017, 02:34:56 PM »

Yes, likely true especially considering that most videocapability is already baked into the chip.  And at one point it probably did make sense to distinguish oneself with videocapabilities. However, it seems lately the competition in the videocapabilities is becoming detrimental to development in both directions.

High quality video in a midrange camera seems overkill. I see two types of usecases:
1. The tourist shooter who likes to make the occasional videoclip
2. The professional shooter who really requires high-end results for commissioned projects etc.

How are either of these served by say a Panasonic LX100 or a Fuji X-T20 doing superior 4k video?

In a word, what a bunch of bosh!

I'll wager that the majority of readers of this forum fit neither of the above groups. Omitted are the passionate amateurs who have the abilities and hardware to produce professional quality results. The advent of affordable 4K video with the Panny GH4 three years ago was an eye-opener to me, and has transformed my enjoyment of the video medium I have dabbled in for years, but disappointed by the limitations of even quite good 1080HD. Very decent stills may be cut from the 8.3MP 4K frames, that stand up remarkable well to PP. Below a small central 100% crop from a hummingbird video with the GH4 and adapted Canon 100-400 vII - handheld on a breezy day with EFL of 800mm and it's excellent 4EV IS.

The video, in 4K. Select 1080p otherwise, as 720p is Vimeo's default:





 
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 02:38:18 PM by Pete Berry »
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opgr

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2017, 03:42:07 PM »

In a word, what a bunch of bosh!

I'll wager that the majority of readers of this forum fit neither of the above groups. Omitted are the passionate amateurs who have the abilities and hardware to produce professional quality results. ...

What's your point?

I didn't say there is not a need for video with ILS, especially supporting existing photo lens options, but I fail to see the need to keep it integrated in a single device which for historical reasons happens to be the photocamera. A photo camera is simply not ergonomically friendly for video, and a video device with palmrest is much better suited for the task.

I believe most consumers and professionals would be much better served with two separate devices so they can choose to purchase the option required instead of having to shell out extra $$$ on a device that is then hampered with extra buttons and functionality that gets in the way of what you want it to do in the first place.

The obvious exceptions of course are travelzoom category and weddingjockeys, both of which may need impromptu video, but otherwise a separate device will likely be more appropriate for most usecases (and probably make the manufacturer more money).
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Oscar

Morgan_Moore

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2017, 04:05:18 AM »

Stills and video. Exposing a sensor to light and recording the data.

What does a sport photographer want 25FPS raw. What does a videographer want 25FPS raw.. or more.

To me it seems the same thing. I think Jim Jannard had a D3 (like I did/do) and thought.. yep those are the motion frames I want but not 8FPS but 25.30.60.120 or 500 of those frames per second.

Ive always expected at D6, or 1dx7 to simply be a fast raw shooting (pellicle mirror?) with maybe an add on box with large data store for video and some video IO ports.

simples.

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Pete Berry

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2017, 02:34:15 PM »

What's your point?

I didn't say there is not a need for video with ILS, especially supporting existing photo lens options, but I fail to see the need to keep it integrated in a single device which for historical reasons happens to be the photocamera. A photo camera is simply not ergonomically friendly for video, and a video device with palmrest is much better suited for the task.

I believe most consumers and professionals would be much better served with two separate devices so they can choose to purchase the option required instead of having to shell out extra $$$ on a device that is then hampered with extra buttons and functionality that gets in the way of what you want it to do in the first place.

The obvious exceptions of course are travelzoom category and weddingjockeys, both of which may need impromptu video, but otherwise a separate device will likely be more appropriate for most usecases (and probably make the manufacturer more money).

I thought my point was fairly obvious in the examples posted above: That an affordable camera body - the GH4 at about $1500, can produce pretty striking results at high speed - in this case 30p - with 8.3MP frames captured that show a remarkable absence of artifacts at 100%. The GH5 has considerably upped the game with "6K Photo" delivering 19MP video/stills in 3:2 or 4:3 for the capacity of the battery or SD card, as well a 4K 60p. The Olympus E-M1-II can deliver full sized 20MP JPG's+RAW @ 60fps for 1 sec. bursts.

As to the small dedicated videocams you're referring to, there's nothing out there I'm aware that's remotely "palmable" with the video capabilities of the above - particularly in the low light pro bono performance events I shoot regularly with fast native or adapted zooms and primes.

The hybrid wave broke several years ago, and I can't see that trying to get manufacturers to strip video away is anything but howling at the moon!
Pete



 

 
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bcooter

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2017, 07:26:59 PM »


snip:   what's the matter with these companies?

OTOH, Leica has produce back-to-basics models of the M at high premiums...

Video holds no attraction for me at all. It's difficult enough getting good single images; who needs to fight for extended ones that move!

;-)

Rob



Because you have a moving pallet that your typing on right now.    Whether anyone likes it or not, we are in the age of multi use, multi purpose, multi media.

I have zero doubt that Canon, or Nikon or Sony, can't make a full blown autofocus, 10 or 12 bit, high bit rate motion camera that captures excellent stills.  The 1dxII is the closest available and shoots well, just the motion imagery is 8 bits, though an excellent high bit rate and amazing autofocus in still and motion.

I believe Canon protects their upline of motion cameras, probably the same with Sony.  Nikon doesn't have anything to protect so I assume, (now this is just a GUESS), that since Nikon get's their sensors from Sony they limit what level of motion capabilities their still cameras can shoot, because everyone in the higher end, more profitable range of making cameras is trying to sell more.

But it doesn't matter because there is nothing new about a client, a professional or an enthusiast wanting more. 

If video wan't important, mobile phones wouldn't shoot it and what camera maker wouldn't want a piece of that market?

Gosh, from family, friends, clients, I get a video a day on my phone.  Keeps me in touch and in all ways is entertaining and important.

I like shooting motion, trying to be better all the time and right now digital cinema cameras are where still digital cameras were 10 or more years ago and I don't believe for the large companies,  it's the tech holding them back, I believe it's the marketing strategy.

For the smaller companies like Leica, Hasselblad, maybe they don't have the resources, though Leica has some very good and very, very expensive PL mount lenses for cinema so they've stuck their toes in the cinema waters.

Things have changed.  Sure some still photographers will never touch a motion camera, and vice versa.  Amway, in the world of commerce and fun, the more you can do  . . .

Well you get the idea.

IMO

BC

hogloff

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2017, 09:56:43 AM »

There are many features in today's cameras that I never use...should I bitch about every one of them and ask the manufactures to remove "green mode" from my advanced cameras?

If you don't use video...just don't press the video button...is that so hard to do?
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opgr

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2017, 10:45:10 AM »

There are many features in today's cameras that I never use...should I bitch about every one of them and ask the manufactures to remove "green mode" from my advanced cameras?

If you live in a free country, go ahead. The forums do experience some moderation lately, but generally if you moderate your tone yourself, you're welcome to spam this thread.

This thread however, is about adding an entirely different function to a photographic device, a function which very apparently takes manufacturers some significant effort to implement. Otherwise all cameras would already offer full 8k video support with stereosound connections and stabilisation and silent focusing and what not.

If you don't use video...just don't press the video button...is that so hard to do?

Yes, especially because they put that button right under the thumbrest. Fortunately, one can switch off the button so it doesn't automatically start the video, but they decided that we then need to be warned by a blocking dialogue which blocks the camera from taking a picture.

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Oscar

Chris Sanderson

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2017, 11:23:38 AM »

Interesting to note that Leica removed video functionality for the M10 (present in the M9) - apparently at the request of customers
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hogloff

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2017, 12:01:27 PM »

If you live in a free country, go ahead. The forums do experience some moderation lately, but generally if you moderate your tone yourself, you're welcome to spam this thread.

This thread however, is about adding an entirely different function to a photographic device, a function which very apparently takes manufacturers some significant effort to implement. Otherwise all cameras would already offer full 8k video support with stereosound connections and stabilisation and silent focusing and what not.

Yes, especially because they put that button right under the thumbrest. Fortunately, one can switch off the button so it doesn't automatically start the video, but they decided that we then need to be warned by a blocking dialogue which blocks the camera from taking a picture.

And just as obviously there must be a demand for these video features if they truly do cost so much as you say. I’m sure the manufactures would not put this extra costs into a camera if the demand was not there.

Exactly how much extra cost is adding video into still cameras. Got any details to back up your points.
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jrsforums

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2017, 12:28:44 PM »

We have the ability to decide the balance of features we want, and are willing to accept, and “vote” with our $$s. 

Much more telling to the manufacturer than complaints in a forum.
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John

opgr

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2017, 12:37:57 PM »

And just as obviously there must be a demand for these video features if they truly do cost so much as you say. I’m sure the manufactures would not put this extra costs into a camera if the demand was not there.

Exactly how much extra cost is adding video into still cameras. Got any details to back up your points.

Other than jesting at the halfprice slash, I never said anything about cost. It stands to reason that if it takes significant effort, it probably incurs significant cost.

I also said nothing about demand. I'm perfectly fine with a separate device with all the accumulated tech one can muster. I personally don't see the point other than satisfying the DPReview crowd where the first thing they do in a review is btch about the lack of the next trendy penisextensiongadget completely negating any photographic merit of a device. It's like; "Hey, this is the best camera we've ever handled, but meh, it doesn't do 4k video."

And suddenly the support for 4k video is the make-or-break function, until, of course, one manufacturer offers 8k, and next we will just be sliding down the slippery slope of keeping up with the Joneses, which is likely why the function went into a photocamera to begin with, because how many neighbours really need 4k quality video?

All the while, some of us just want a decent photocamera for a reasonable price. You know, a camera that can actually produce decent colors by itself, without having to resort to a thirdparty RAW converter.
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Oscar

opgr

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2017, 12:39:12 PM »

We have the ability to decide the balance of features we want, and are willing to accept, and “vote” with our $$s. 

Much more telling to the manufacturer than complaints in a forum.

No, we don't. I don't believe the market for pure still photographers is large enough to make a dent of any consequence.
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Oscar

hogloff

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2017, 12:48:34 PM »

Other than jesting at the halfprice slash, I never said anything about cost. It stands to reason that if it takes significant effort, it probably incurs significant cost.

I also said nothing about demand. I'm perfectly fine with a separate device with all the accumulated tech one can muster. I personally don't see the point other than satisfying the DPReview crowd where the first thing they do in a review is btch about the lack of the next trendy penisextensiongadget completely negating any photographic merit of a device. It's like; "Hey, this is the best camera we've ever handled, but meh, it doesn't do 4k video."

And suddenly the support for 4k video is the make-or-break function, until, of course, one manufacturer offers 8k, and next we will just be sliding down the slippery slope of keeping up with the Joneses, which is likely why the function went into a photocamera to begin with, because how many neighbours really need 4k quality video?

All the while, some of us just want a decent photocamera for a reasonable price. You know, a camera that can actually produce decent colors by itself, without having to resort to a thirdparty RAW converter.

Does it take significant effort?

Also, there are many low priced cameras that take great images. Exactly what is holding you back today from taking great still images?
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opgr

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Re: Stills vs Video
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2017, 01:31:36 PM »

Exactly what is holding you back today from taking great still images?

The freakin' videobutton that decides to block picturetaking with an irrelevant dialogue...
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Oscar
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