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Author Topic: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?  (Read 1377 times)

Lust4Life

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Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« on: September 06, 2017, 01:21:04 PM »

My Canon iPF6400 has worked flawlessly for 5 years now - far better than any of the Epsons I had owned in the past.

This week, my 5 year old iPF6400 gave an error message to replace the right print head!
Wow, I didn't want to see that!

Hoping it would clear if I did a reboot, I powered up and now it reports replace the Maintenance Tank and I can't get past that error to see if it still wants to have me replace the print head.  Could it be that the Maintenance Tank being full caused the error code for the print head?

I really don't print that much BUT when I do, I want great results.  I have the i1Profiler and build my own profiles for each paper and when I add inks.

Now, I have a chance to purchase the Canon Pro 2000 24" printer for a fair price.

Thinking, if one print head has failed, other will be next.  Thus $900 shot on those.  Add the maintenance tank for another $70 and I'm at a grand with a 5 year old rig and no warranty for whatever goes next.  No service either in North Carolina from a good dealer.

Has anyone "upgraded" from the iPF6400 to the Pro 2000, and if so, differences?
Worth the cost to upgrade?

I know from the past, once these critters start to fail, look out as the risk for future expenses is high!

Thoughts?
Jack
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 05:04:37 PM by Lust4Life »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2017, 02:20:36 PM »

Based on print comparisons I've seen between the two printers, you'll get higher quality output from the Pro-2000, as well as useful new features (see my review on this website). The build quality also looks to be more robust, but I don't have design or materials details to substantiate that observation. It is definitely sturdier. How important all that is to you is of course a personal matter, but if the time looks technically and financially right to contemplate the upgrade, this would likely be a good one.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mearussi

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2017, 10:26:57 PM »

Why not invest in the future instead of the past? You might also notice that the head replacement costs on the 2000 are $650 instead of $900, so cheaper future maintanence. 
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MHMG

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2017, 10:50:56 PM »

My Canon iPF6400 has worked flawlessly for 5 years now - far better than any of the Epsons I had owned in the past.

This week, my 5 year old iPF6400 gave an error message to replace the right print head!
Wow, I didn't want to see that!

Hoping it would clear if I did a reboot, I powered up and now it reports replace the Maintenance Tank and I can't get past that error to see if it still wants to have me replace the print head.  Could it be that the Maintenance Tank being full caused the error code for the print head?

I really don't print that much BUT when I do, I want great results.  I have the i1Profiler and build my own profiles for each paper and when I add inks.

Now, I have a chance to purchase the Canon Pro 2000 24" printer for a fair price.

Thinking, if one print head has failed, other will be next.  Thus $900 shot on those.  Add the maintenance tank for another $70 and I'm at a grand with a 5 year old rig and no warranty for whatever goes next.  No service either in North Carolina from a good dealer.

Has anyone "upgraded" from the iPF6400 to the Pro 2000, and if so, differences?
Worth the cost to upgrade?

I know from the past, once these critters start to fail, look out as the risk for future expenses is high!

Thoughts?
Jack

Replacing the maintenance tank and perhaps a pair of print heads  in and iPF6400 is indeed painful (Canon support staff actually encourages replacing iPfX300 and X400 series printheads in pairs), but moving to a newer Pro-2000 will still still cost you more time and money when all the dust settles. Can one see a difference in print quality? Perhaps on some media (especially glossy/luster unless you are willing to post treat with a spray coat like Premier Print Shield in which case the new Chroma Optimizer becomes a moot point), but definitely not all, and if you print for clients, they definitely won't see it unless you boast about the new technology and plant that seed of "newer better" in their brains. Additionally, the jury is still out on whether the new Lucia Pro-11 ink set matches, exceeds, or underperforms the older Lucia EX ink set in terms of overall print longevity. The Lucia Pro-11 ink set adds essentially nothing to color gamut, and may actually slide backwards a bit in order to accommodate the chroma optimizer channel. The Lucia Pro-11 set was aimed squarely at better Dmax and lower bronzing and differential gloss on RC photo papers, but printing on non RC fine art media, both matte and gloss/luster, is a decidedly mixed bag for image quality compared to the older Lucia EX ink set.

IMHO, going one more round of maintenance/repairs with your existing printer still makes sense unless the error code is definitely something that requires a Canon service repair guy to show up at your door. Print heads and maintenance tanks are easily user replaceable.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 11:06:18 PM by MHMG »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2017, 04:40:48 AM »

Replacing the maintenance tank and perhaps a pair of print heads  in and iPF6400 is indeed painful (Canon support staff actually encourages replacing iPfX300 and X400 series printheads in pairs), but moving to a newer Pro-2000 will still still cost you more time and money when all the dust settles. Can one see a difference in print quality? Perhaps on some media (especially glossy/luster unless you are willing to post treat with a spray coat like Premier Print Shield in which case the new Chroma Optimizer becomes a moot point), but definitely not all, and if you print for clients, they definitely won't see it unless you boast about the new technology and plant that seed of "newer better" in their brains. Additionally, the jury is still out on whether the new Lucia Pro-11 ink set matches, exceeds, or underperforms the older Lucia EX ink set in terms of overall print longevity. The Lucia Pro-11 ink set adds essentially nothing to color gamut, and may actually slide backwards a bit in order to accommodate the chroma optimizer channel. The Lucia Pro-11 set was aimed squarely at better Dmax and lower bronzing and differential gloss on RC photo papers, but printing on non RC fine art media, both matte and gloss/luster, is a decidedly mixed bag for image quality compared to the older Lucia EX ink set.

IMHO, going one more round of maintenance/repairs with your existing printer still makes sense unless the error code is definitely something that requires a Canon service repair guy to show up at your door. Print heads and maintenance tanks are easily user replaceable.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

There's no real substitute for looking at prints in direct comparison, and I've done that, so I stick with my above suggestions. Furthermore one of the main quality improvements is superior image definition because the new model is more stable, vibrates less and the print head is supposed to be an improved version. Also note that in the new model we are dealing with one larger print-head instead of two, eliminating the idea of replacing them in pairs at high cost.I agree with mearussi's idea of investing in the future. When making large spending decisions it is more important to think forward about future performance and future costs rather than historic performance and more uncertain costs given the age of the printer.
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Lust4Life

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2017, 08:25:12 AM »

There's no real substitute for looking at prints in direct comparison, and I've done that, so I stick with my above suggestions. Furthermore one of the main quality improvements is superior image definition because the new model is more stable, vibrates less and the print head is supposed to be an improved version. Also note that in the new model we are dealing with one larger print-head instead of two, eliminating the idea of replacing them in pairs at high cost.I agree with mearussi's idea of investing in the future. When making large spending decisions it is more important to think forward about future performance and future costs rather than historic performance and more uncertain costs given the age of the printer.

Mark, I read your extensive review and found it an excellent analyses and well presented.  You expressed it impartially, and I appreciated that.

For decades I printed only on Epson units.  Candidly, I went nuts with all of the issues I would have with the units.  Then I bought the iPF6400 and I have had 5 years with not one "head clog" or issue of any nature.  Yes, the printer vibration is dramatically more than I felt it should be and it is nice to hear that has been calmed down a bit.  But the unit I have is now starting to fail, and as it is both mechanical and electronic, once that happens be ready for major expenses.  Being there is NO dealer in this area, I'm screwed should a major failure occur.  I just can't see putting a grand into it now to replace the two print heads and the maintenance tank.  Let the controller board fail, then I'm really pissed.  Or anything that would require my taking the unit out of state to find a authorized repair station.

The reviewer, Mark, and I are on the same page in logic.  Order placed with my dealer and it should ship today.

At 71 years of age, I am taking the year 2018 and going to pursue breaking into the overcrowded landscape market.  With that as my focus for 2018, I'm going to print out a fresh collection of my best works (in my opinion) and I might as well print them on the 2000 even if it gives just a 10% improvement in visual impact. 

To date, I have standardized on the 325gm Fine Art Baryta from Hahnemuhle for the last couple of years.
I'm hoping this paper will pull out the extra from the 2000.  If others folks feel, after looking at my work, there is another paper I should test out, please speak up with WHY you feel that way. 

As noted above, 95%+ of my work in B&W.  I like "drama" in a print (favorite photographers are Winn Bullock and Brett Weston, Cole Thompson) and for color I like to try to achieve an painterly effect as demonstrated in the current logon image at my site.  I am going to focus more on color work in the future and see if I can develop a style I enjoy.

Mark, again thanks for the best review of the 2000 I was able to find on the net, and for your suggestions here.  Cash has now been allocated, hope I get what I wish to find and that the 2000 unit will compensate for the cut in my budget elsewhere in order to afford it!   :-)

Jack
http://www.shadowsdancing.com
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2017, 09:33:17 AM »

Hi Jack,

Glad you found all that useful and good luck with the big new purchase. It will be a change from the older one so do take care to study the manual for all the important functions. I think the Hahn paper you have been using should do very well with that printer based on other similar Baryta type papers I've tested either with the Pro-2000 or the Pro-1000 (same inkset and printhead).

Mark
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krismaz

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2017, 04:26:10 PM »

Hi Jack,
Just to balance the positive, there are some unpleasant surprises. First of all make sure your media will feed properly. There have been many reports with the feed issues on pro2000 and I personally experienced quite a few (not only with thick heavy substrates). I have 2 canon engineers attend two of my pro2000s unable to fix feeding issues with Epson Single Weight Matte paper. Currently waiting over a week for a 3rd tech to come and try to fix it. Second step backwards in my opinion is the lack of spectro as an add on option (you are stuck with builtin densitometer). Also to make matters worse it apperas that it is no longer possible to calibrate custom media listed in the driver as Special 1-10. Bronzing is also worse than on IP6400. Yes, you can use chroma optimiser for that but in my experience it gets you back to what you can achieve from 6400 without the need of chroma optmizer (it also adds to the cost as you will need to use more ink overall). In my opinion pro2000 is 2 steps forwards and 3 steps back, so make sure the drawbacks Canon 'introduced' with the new printers will not affect your workflow, or at least you can live with them.
kris
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mearussi

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2017, 07:41:34 PM »

You know with all the paper loading problems the new Canons have you might want to consider the Epsons instead. At least they don't have any paper loading problems (I've heard about--but who knows?).
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2017, 02:38:27 AM »

You know with all the paper loading problems the new Canons have you might want to consider the Epsons instead. At least they don't have any paper loading problems (I've heard about--but who knows?).

Specifically what paper loading problems do you have in mind?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mearussi

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2017, 03:30:18 AM »

Specifically what paper loading problems do you have in mind?
Another discussion here: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=120434.0

also other misc threads were complaints were made about similar paper loading issues.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2017, 04:20:51 AM »

Another discussion here: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=120434.0

also other misc threads were complaints were made about similar paper loading issues.

OK, thanks for that reference. So we're essentially talking about one major issue. The problem there actually is with the paper rolls, and I did come across it once - if the paper is not firmly affixed to the heavy cardboard roller that holds it, the printer mechanism spins the roller but not the paper, and it is frustrating until you realize what's going on and fix it by attaching the paper to its core roller with good sticky tape. Apart from that, when I was testing the Pro-2000 for my review using a range of papers varying in thickness and finish I was impressed with how easily the paper feeding mechanism works - once you follow the instructions correctly to the "T". It is different from any other printer, because of the two-roll mechanism Canon developed, a really nice piece of design efficiency for people using two different papers routinely, or want to save space by having the lower roller take up the print coming from the paper used in the upper roller. It takes some getting used to and fiddling with a few adjustments at the outset, but I think pretty smooth sailing thereafter. You may wish to check Keith Cooper's review - Northlight Images; he has a much more detailed review of paper loading in the Pro-2000 than I wrote (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon-imageprograf-pro-2000-printer-review/#Paper_Loading), and he did not report problems with it.Not to say there can't be any - I don't doubt others' experience, but perhaps not systemic issues.
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krismaz

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2017, 05:01:49 AM »

Just to clarify, in my case the problem is not with paper loading but with paper feeding. It will load the roll without any issue but errors mid print saying it's out of paper. That results in paper and ink wastage. Out of the three printers I have two are really bad erroring every 4-5 prints and one does it occasionally (once a day). In 3 tears + I had 4 IPF6400s for, I never had a single feeding issue so it appears Canon has a design issue with the new printers. 
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Lust4Life

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2017, 07:48:24 AM »

Just to clarify, in my case the problem is not with paper loading but with paper feeding. It will load the roll without any issue but errors mid print saying it's out of paper. That results in paper and ink wastage. Out of the three printers I have two are really bad erroring every 4-5 prints and one does it occasionally (once a day). In 3 tears + I had 4 IPF6400s for, I never had a single feeding issue so it appears Canon has a design issue with the new printers.

Quite frankly, that is very concerning as you are using multiple printer and the problem is occurring in the majority of them!

I'm not a patient chap,especially when I have paid someone for a product and it is not performing as advertised, and on top of that you are loosing your cash on wasted ink and paper!

I'm going to report this thread to my dealer this morning, and if a fix is not guaranteed, I'll reject the delivery.

Jack
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2017, 09:40:13 AM »

This is the first time I hear of such issues. I put in a note to Canon asking about it. If I hear back anything useful I'll post on it.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Lust4Life

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2017, 09:46:39 AM »

Thanks Mark.
Please let me know as soon as you hear back.

I just called the dealer.
They are checking to see if it shipped yesterday.
I was advised by the dealer on Tuesday that it would ship on Wednesday.
On Wednesday I checked with dealer and he said it did not ship but it should ship on Thursday and he would
send me an email as soon as it shipped.
Nothing from him this morning SO the assumption is it did not ship yesterday either.

I told dealer to put a hold on it until I get this issue resolved.
They are now checking to see if it did ship yesterday.

The poor chat in the message above that is wrestling with 2 of 3 units having this attribute is very disturbing.
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Jack
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Lust4Life

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2017, 12:50:16 PM »

Just to clarify, in my case the problem is not with paper loading but with paper feeding. It will load the roll without any issue but errors mid print saying it's out of paper. That results in paper and ink wastage. Out of the three printers I have two are really bad erroring every 4-5 prints and one does it occasionally (once a day). In 3 tears + I had 4 IPF6400s for, I never had a single feeding issue so it appears Canon has a design issue with the new printers.

Here is what I JUST received from my dealer:
Awesome news!
"I contacted our Canon field technician and he said there is a work around that he found out himself with his 2000 from the same issue he heard about a week or so ago.

Shawn (our Canon tech) will be contacting you within the hour to answer any concerns you may have, but seems like the person with the 3 models didnít get the information right away to work around it until probably now (or the reps didnít know of the solution at that moment).
 
The printer is in VA now and if we turn it around, it will cost us a few hundred, but I believe this workaround should be good to use it.  Feel free to post the option on Luminous as it may help the other guy."

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Jack
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2017, 05:01:09 PM »

Risk shouldn't be high especially as you have a warranty, but probably best to develop an understanding with your dealer about the specifics of the warranty actions that would occur if this problem resurfaces and doesn't get satisfactorily resolved (notwithstanding the hopeful news about the solution they say they have found).
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Lust4Life

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2017, 05:12:47 PM »

Just got off the phone with a Canon company Tech, not a contractor, that seems sharp.
He said the printer roller mechanism is looking for tension feedback value on the paper coming into the printer.

IF the paper on the roll being fed into the printer is slack for any reason (tape on the end of the roll fails to securely hold the paper to the roll/the roll of paper is so stiff like the 325gm stuff I use that it insists on "unraveling" itself when you install it in the printer) then the printer will report an error message and stop.

Solution:
1.  Device Settings
2.  Paper Related Settings
3.  Paper Retention - set to Release

This MUST be set with the paper removed from the printer.
Then install the paper.

My unit should be here late Monday afternoon and set up probably on Tuesday.
Will test mine with the 325gm paper that ALWAYS goes to a partially unrolled state and advise what my findings are.

Jack
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 2000 - Update my 5 year old iPF6400?
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2017, 05:21:26 PM »

Yes, what he is telling you is consistent with what I mentioned above about the paper coming unstuck from its cardboard core. If that's really all there is to it, you should be in good shape as you'll know what to look for and how to handle it.
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