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Author Topic: Norman Rockwell Might Have Wept  (Read 1279 times)

Rob C

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Re: Norman Rockwell Might Have Wept
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2017, 04:21:06 PM »

I'm thinking of a couple of interesting dilemmas:

What would you rather have?
1. Racial segregation but economic equality
2. Racial equality but economic injustice
(You can substitute "racial" with "gender" or whatever else is deemed philosophically relevant)

Or

Is an economic injustice acceptable for some minority if it results in equality for the vast majority?
(Minority as in random number of people, but also as in racial minority, or perhaps sexual preference minority, etc)


I think that #2 is what we have.

But with a caveat: economy, good or bad, as in personal/family, comes from effort and not decree. It is entirely dependent on the quality of that applied effort. One can even sniff the rancid air of "quota"-induced equality of opportunity and expect to see differing results. My money would be on the people of the Far East. They work. Hard. They have not only a family ethic of work and application, but a national one too. Those kids apply themselves and take education very seriously indeed. It's visible in the number of Chinese kids getting Honours degrees...

Telecaster

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Re: Norman Rockwell Might Have Wept
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2017, 04:25:11 PM »

We humans have evolved to live in small bands of close-knit hunter/gatherers. It's what we're psychologically and emotionally tuned for. Larger scale and more diverse technological society is something we've, in a sense, imposed upon ourselves. Yet it seems clear enough that we've had, and continue to have, a hard time adapting to this still-new way of life. We're playing an inner game of catch-up to much changed outward circumstances. But we're an innovative species, and we shouldn't mistake short-term noise for long-term trend.

This will take millenia and many human generations to play out. The urge for it all to happen now, while we're around ('cuz it's all about us!), is as delusional as it is commonplace. And even then our distant descendents will have a whole new set of issues and problems to deal with, stuff we can't even begin to imagine.

-Dave-
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Rob C

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Re: Norman Rockwell Might Have Wept
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2017, 04:33:32 PM »

We humans have evolved to live in small bands of close-knit hunter/gatherers. It's what we're psychologically and emotionally tuned for. Larger scale and more diverse technological society is something we've, in a sense, imposed upon ourselves. Yet it seems clear enough that we've had, and continue to have, a hard time adapting to this still-new way of life. We're playing an inner game of catch-up to much changed outward circumstances. But we're an innovative species, and we shouldn't mistake short-term noise for long-term trend.

This will take millenia and many human generations to play out. The urge for it all to happen now, while we're around ('cuz it's all about us!), is as delusional as it is commonplace. And even then our distant descendents will have a whole new set of issues and problems to deal with, stuff we can't even begin to imagine.

-Dave-


Are you saying Rockwell might have wept in vain? I have no idea if he did weep about these matters, but he sure did illustrate them delightfully.

One snag about not resolving these things now is that we may run ourselves, as species, out of time. As much as I enjoyed the early Mad Max epics, I really don't think I'd last very long in that sort of ambience, age apart, of course; my sense of self-preservation is far too strong to let me survive.

Rob

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Norman Rockwell Might Have Wept
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2017, 06:05:40 PM »

... Trying and failing is not a disgrace; the disgrace is in not trying, and as consequence, blaming society for one's own shit. If anything, the nonsense disseminated by the PC/political crowd, that everybody is wonderful and equally worthy, is at the root of the problem because, when somebody tries and falls on their ass, they have already been conditioned to think themselves wonderful and so it has to be an unbeatable plot that's keeping them back and down...

That ^

athegn

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Re: Norman Rockwell Might Have Wept
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2017, 10:19:20 AM »

Working my way through this at the moment:- 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B019CGXTP0/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

May have some relevance to this thread?

The last chapter looks interesting.
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kikashi

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Re: Norman Rockwell Might Have Wept
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2017, 03:03:09 PM »

Really? The first reaction was the murder of a poor old Pole in England; the chanting of "go home" at the school gates was also flavour of the month or of the three-minute-mind.

Yes, really. Nothing apart from some hysterical press ranting ever suggested that the man's murder was related to the vote, still less that his presence had had any effect on it. Xenophobia is not confined to the UK and racial hatred has been seen elsewhere not awfully long ago (something happened in Germany about the middle of the last century, I seem to recall).

Try telling that to folks in south Glasgow, where the area just next to Shawlands has become a Roma bastion... come on, be real Jeremy; the upmarket (very) area of Pollokshields has gone heavily Asian and that has affected a lot of people - and schools - there. There is a huge amount of dislike, and sadly, though it (Brexit) isn't going to change a goddam thing because much of that came quite apart from the European Experiment, all resentment gets mixed up in the public mind with Europe. And let's say this: Scotland voted strongly to remain! How the bulk of the numbers-making rest of England saw the matter is quite clear from the result.

I know nothing of the area of Glasgow you mention. How can you imagine that the presence of Asians had any effect at all on the vote? It's ludicrous.

Dismissing the votes of 17 million people as motivated by hatred of foreigners is phenomenally arrogant, as is pretending that people can't tell the difference between Europeans, even exotic eastern Europeans, and Asians, or that only voters' stupidity could have led to the result. There were many different reasons why Leave won, which I have encountered in tediously extensive discussions in the months leading up to the vote.

Jeremy
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athegn

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Re: Norman Rockwell Might Have Wept
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2017, 03:41:05 PM »

I live in a UK postal area, Romford, strongly associated with leave the EU, but my local authority, Redbridge, is strongly associated with remain in the EU; note UK postal areas can span several local authorities. In fact my Member if Parliament, Mike Gapes, rebelled against his own party to vote to remain in the EU.

I do know a lot of people who live in the neighbouring local authority, Havering, covered by the Romford postal area, many of whom are long term friends, and most voted leave mainly because of immigration. Note one of these "leavers" refuses to accept that her distant ancestors were not white; and not on religious grounds either i.e. she is an atheist! A few, and I'd better be careful here, of the more "educated" type voted to leave because they also feel that EU interference is too much. We have agreed, for the moment, that I will not press my anti leave opinions as it has caused some very heated and even nasty discussions.

Rob's right immigation was the major/main key in a lot of  areas.

 
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Rob C

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Re: Norman Rockwell Might Have Wept
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2017, 04:23:59 PM »

Yes, really. Nothing apart from some hysterical press ranting ever suggested that the man's murder was related to the vote, still less that his presence had had any effect on it. Xenophobia is not confined to the UK and racial hatred has been seen elsewhere not awfully long ago (something happened in Germany about the middle of the last century, I seem to recall).

I know nothing of the area of Glasgow you mention. How can you imagine that the presence of Asians had any effect at all on the vote? It's ludicrous.

Dismissing the votes of 17 million people as motivated by hatred of foreigners is phenomenally arrogant, as is pretending that people can't tell the difference between Europeans, even exotic eastern Europeans, and Asians, or that only voters' stupidity could have led to the result. There were many different reasons why Leave won, which I have encountered in tediously extensive discussions in the months leading up to the vote.

Jeremy

What may be ludicrous to you, Jeremy, is perfectly obvious to me.

17 million may not have voted exclusively on racial hatred, but xenophobia had been the tool used by those dickheads in UKIP, and by its fellow travellers in whichever party. Remember the posters, the buses? I get UK tv here perfectly clearly - if too loudly at times; my fibre optic-provided Internet is probably better that what's available in many regions of the UK. I also see newspapers and have family still in the thick of it there. Pretty much the entire campaign of the Leavers was based on foreigners and the damage they supposedly were doing us; that is, when they weren't just plain lying through their teeth about the millions of diverted pounds they were going to make available to the great British sacred cow: the NHS. Did they give a shit about the City? Did they stop to think about whether it and its peripheral beneficiaries might be affected? Of course not: to millions, the City, wealth creators, simply repesents the enemy! Did they ever say exactly which jobs those dreadful foreigners had stolen from us? They did their hate shit well: so well that Trump's just duplicating it on his patch.

Unless you have run your own dedicated surveys nationwide, have access to special newspapers the rest of us do not, I respectfully submit that I probably know as much about the zeitgeist and the popular pulse as do you.

Your reference to the Nazi period does nothing to absolve our own, home-grown crazies; I'm surpised you raised the point. Well, at least by saying that it isn't confined to the UK, you do admit that it sure does exist in the UK, which is some sort of progress.

To what logical reasons would you, then, ascribe the Leaver victory? Hardly from a considered business perspective when we are about to ditch our best, bird-in-hand clients, lose the City's power in the world... but that it doesn't matter, because the world will flock to work with us through some imaginary notion that we are the best-loved little country in the world? The US thought that it was the biggest most loved one, but reality doesn't bear that out - especially in today's political climate. I remember the interview with the car worker in Sunderland who, when asked whether he felt we were putting his job with a Japanese company at risk by leaving the Union sniggered, and said hey, we have the best engineers, they can't do without us! Yep, that's the mindset that thinks it's all gonna be all right on the night... That it's our current tax relationship with Europe, as well as the pool of available hands desperately keen to be employed has nothing to do with it, just reveals how blind folks are when they follow leaders, especially those with but a single item on their agenda: OUT! It didn't seem to occur to that worker that Poland has equally skilled engineers with vastly lower wage expectations, and Spain already hosts Ford and VW amongst other multi-national companies; what would it take to expand that factory base? Just a signature on the dotted line. The enthusiasm sure exists here, as do the skills! And believe me, Europe is just as clever - if not more so - than the UK at bending inconvenient rules about slush funds. The moment the returns from post-Brexit, foreign-owned UK-based factories go south, so do the companies move. Hell, Scotland's nationalists face similar revenue problems: you can't skin a cat if that cat can still jump.

But hey, we shall never see eye to eye on this, so what's left to say? Nada.

Alan Klein

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Re: Norman Rockwell Might Have Wept
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2017, 06:57:35 PM »

...Pretty much the entire campaign of the Leavers was based on foreigners and the damage they supposedly were doing us; that is, when they weren't just plain lying through their teeth about the millions of diverted pounds they were going to make available to the great British sacred cow: the NHS. Did they give a shit about the City? Did they stop to think about whether it and its peripheral beneficiaries might be affected? Of course not: to millions, the City, wealth creators, simply repesents the enemy! Did they ever say exactly which jobs those dreadful foreigners had stolen from us? They did their hate shit well: so well that Trump's just duplicating it on his patch...
As an American, I can speak to why America went for Trump.  While there are always crazies, the main impetus I saw was the resentment of the elites who talked down to people, who always know what's best for them.  For years, decades, the government has gained power.  People saw more and more of their liberty, money, and freedom to live their lives taken away from them.  The elites favored outsiders or outside sourcing of jobs and production either because they expect their vote or they expect to get cheap labor and cheaper made products.  The average American was not checked if they agreed with this game plan.  When the economy didn't change much after the 2008 recession, many people wanted a change.  They rejected the usual politicians and their stale Pablum.  They wanted something different.

The idea that change was bigoted and racial isn't correct unless you also believe that Sander's supporters were bigots and racists too.  The fact is Sanders is a socialist, practically a Marxist.  He campaigned like Trump did - as a populist whose policies favor the average guy.  Anti-trade, anti-elite.  Arguing the economic benefits of the EU over there or trade agreements over here misses the point that people are not economics' majors.  If they were, socialists, Marxists, and Communists  would never come to power. 

Having people in charge of your life are rejected whether they are gnomes in Brussels or elite politicians in Washington.  People on the outside reject that intuitively.   
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HSakols

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Re: Norman Rockwell Might Have Wept
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2017, 07:42:00 PM »

I guess this is now the Trump III thread.  Alan, does social justice mean anything!  Go back to 1950 and work in your factory! 
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Rob C

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Re: Norman Rockwell Might Have Wept
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2017, 04:47:12 AM »

I guess this is now the Trump III thread.  Alan, does social justice mean anything!  Go back to 1950 and work in your factory!


Well, I did just that in '56.

What I learned was that it had little to do with "social justice" or anything as exotic as that, whatever it means. Social justice was never part of any conversation I shared - what was part of said conversation was football, pop music (for the younger lot), the best dance halls where you'd find the prettiest girls (as if they ran in packs!), football, booze, football. Nobody spoke career.

Then came the infamous appentices' strike of '59 (possibly '60, but I'm hazy on that today) where the radical crowd from the shipyards spread the Marxist gospel wider, and our own huge and already quite highly skilled shop floor youth was dragged into it courtesy six or seven self-appointed leaders of our own lot of kids. Pickets "manned" the main gates and the few of us who said screw you, assholes, would get into work via other areas. It was like breaking and entering your own home.

How did it turn out? As if nothing had happened. The strikers refused to speak to us non-strikers thereafter - no big loss, I never liked football anyway, and I had the same girlfriend from schooldays so the dance halls advice didn't matter- and it was made clear to me by my own intelligence that a factory environment was never going to hack it for me. Hell, I was only there because I didn't want to be apart from my girlfriend and had no intention of getting killed fighting wars in Northern Ireland, Cyprus, Kenya or any other place that wasn't posing a threat to the survival of the UK. It had been a stark choice: take the job or go to war courtesy the age period when one was vulnerable to conscription.

What I did note, especially after the event, was that none of my fellow apprentices had any ambition to do anything else other than work in a factory. I never met the wannabe anything elses. That's something that people who didn't have a similar factory experience often fail to understand. Angst simply wasn't on the personal menu. I'd guarantee nobody would have had the slightest idea what friggin' angst meant. I also believe that the same sort of thing exists in the population on a far wider scale than the factory, and in many psychological areas of experience. It's my realisation that politicians use that "innocence" to their advantage by creating entire movements of discontent where before had been a reasonable state of spiritual peacefulness. The trick is a simple one: feed envy and discontent into a population and thereby create totally unrealistic wishes way beyond the ability of those affected folk ever to obtain. That's all it takes: ignite discontent through impossible aspiration. When a bogeyman is created, he becomes the perfect focus for your own shortcomings, at once absolving you from your own guilt. Bogeyman, in the form of employer, banker, insurance agent, supplier, competitor, foreigner, anyone at all outwith the confines of the personal skull can be foe; anything will do to protect the ego. How much nicer it might have been were ego unknown. (?) Or maybe not.

From the outside, and especially if not within a very similar situation, it's so easy to project one's personal ideas and ideals and imagine that the rest of humanity shares the same frustrations. It probably doesn't, just as it doesn't have to share our own enthusiasms.

Rob
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 09:13:42 AM by Rob C »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Norman Rockwell Might Have Wept
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2017, 10:39:46 AM »

I guess this is now the Trump III thread.  Alan, does social justice mean anything!  Go back to 1950 and work in your factory! 
In the 1950's when I was 14, I worked as a caddy. Got paid $4 for a single 18 round and $8 for a double 18.  I usually got a $2 tip but some cheapskates gave me a dollar.  The sports gave me $3 tip.  My first real job was working for Bank for America at 16 for $60 a week.  I remember I was pissed they were taking $1.80 for Social Security (that's 3%.  Now it's 7.65% including 1.4% for Medicare, and the Employer matches the 7.65% fully. All that's beside Federal, State and City income taxes.)  That's how government, mainly Democrats,  and Socialism has taken more and more of people's money.  All that money going for Social Justice.  Welfare grew immensely in the 1960's.  All that money for single mothers to take care of their families led to the breakup of the Black family and extended their poverty.  Black children suffered discipline problems that led to jail and drugs as fathers disappeared so the mothers could continue to get more money with more babies.    When white people spoke about stopping welfare or modifying it so it made sense, they were called racists.  Even though welfare negatively effected white families as well.   Social justice was the mantra.  The road to hell is paved with good intentions. 
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kikashi

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Re: Norman Rockwell Might Have Wept
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2017, 02:41:11 PM »

But hey, we shall never see eye to eye on this, so what's left to say? Nada.

Probably true; but I'll add only one more thing. You confuse fear of immigration (and its effects) with hatred of foreigners. It was your causal attribution of the latter as a cause for the leave vote which prompted me to respond. I am in no doubt that immigration played a huge role in the Leave victory. It doesn't affect me adversely: there's no risk of a Polish lawyer taking my job. But the presence of significant numbers of people prepared to do low-paid jobs for less than Britons wanted did affect the vote - and who is to say that the people who voted leave for that reason were wrong?

Project Fear failed because it over-egged the pudding, as events have shown and I believe will continue to show. The campaign was awful: frankly, I found that each time I listened to a broadcast by one group I found myself impelled to vote for the other.

Jeremy
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Rob C

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Re: Norman Rockwell Might Have Wept
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2017, 04:28:19 AM »

Probably true; but I'll add only one more thing. You confuse fear of immigration (and its effects) with hatred of foreigners. It was your causal attribution of the latter as a cause for the leave vote which prompted me to respond. I am in no doubt that immigration played a huge role in the Leave victory. It doesn't affect me adversely: there's no risk of a Polish lawyer taking my job. But the presence of significant numbers of people prepared to do low-paid jobs for less than Britons wanted did affect the vote - and who is to say that the people who voted leave for that reason were wrong?

Project Fear failed because it over-egged the pudding, as events have shown and I believe will continue to show. The campaign was awful: frankly, I found that each time I listened to a broadcast by one group I found myself impelled to vote for the other.

Jeremy

The problem with your argument is this: those low-paid, unskilled jobs have always existed. The trouble is that our own people now prefer to collect the dole than do the work for pretty much the same renumeration, highlighting that its also our relatively recent handout culture that feeds the discontent. Hence the filling of the home-grown vacuum from abroad. And thank God somebody fills it! Europeans, by and large, associate unemployment with a sense of shame. I never found that with our own, other than within the ranks of the self-employed, the obvious reason of mental make-up forcing them into a life of natural self-reliance and of shame when they can't hack it for one reason or another, and it may not even be their own fault.

As for your own job not feeling at risk, don't depend on that: there are many European, Asian and Far Eastern people with incredible skills and qualifications, and eaning them within our own universities. Do you work in London or one of the big cities, or perhaps in the countryside? Makes a difference where one meets competition.

Electoral issues are not solved by logic: results depend on vibe. Were that not so, the inevitable national bankruptcy that eventually follows each socialist government (and routinely leads to its dismissal) would, in a logical world, preclude any further socialist victories. It doesn't pan out like that, though, does it? The majority of voters remain chained to pop cultural models, and only a small, swinging number ring the changes. Whether for government or on issues, folks vote by gut and not brain. Your own "each time I listened to a broadcast by one group I found myself impelled to vote for the other..." suggests it was gut, not brain making the call - and you have legal training! What hope for the guy on the factory assembly line hoping to secure his job?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 05:24:48 AM by Rob C »
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