Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50  (Read 3197 times)

pschefz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 309
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2017, 08:34:47 PM »

the SL is no competition for a fuji XT-2....
Logged
schefz.com
artloch.com

flash

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 154
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2017, 05:56:29 AM »

the SL is no competition for a fuji XT-2....

In what way? If youíre saying the SL sensor and lenses are better than the XT2 equivalents then absolutely. They should be at 5 times the price. I have both. I can compare them directly.

Gordon
Logged

pschefz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 309
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2017, 12:08:34 PM »

In what way? If youíre saying the SL sensor and lenses are better than the XT2 equivalents then absolutely. They should be at 5 times the price. I have both. I can compare them directly.

Gordon
the SL is let down by a mediocre sensor, if one can get over the APC size sensor, the XT2 is probably equal in IQ, the lenses are amazing and with the wider apertures available, they can make up for the difference in sensor size, i am not even taking AF, video,....into consideration....
the crazy thing is that one can get the same IQ with the XT20 and now the XE3 as well....
i tested the SL when it came out, had one on order, loved the zoom but its just a completely overpriced camera, even with the price drop....IQ just does not justify the price at all, the GFX is in a completely different galaxy in terms of IQ......
Logged
schefz.com
artloch.com

flash

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 154
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2017, 11:02:41 PM »

the SL is let down by a mediocre sensor, if one can get over the APC size sensor, the XT2 is probably equal in IQ, the lenses are amazing and with the wider apertures available, they can make up for the difference in sensor size, i am not even taking AF, video,....into consideration....
the crazy thing is that one can get the same IQ with the XT20 and now the XE3 as well....
i tested the SL when it came out, had one on order, loved the zoom but its just a completely overpriced camera, even with the price drop....IQ just does not justify the price at all, the GFX is in a completely different galaxy in terms of IQ......

As I said I have both. The SL with current firmware is measurably and noticeably better than the XT2 sensor in both high ISO noise and DR. The Fujifilm 24MP sensor is a great sensor. Just a bit below the SL. The high ISO banding and AF performance of the longer end of the standard zoom were both addressed in firmware long ago. SInce the SL f.w. 2.0 my Reasonably comprehensive Fuji kit has been collecting dust.

Trying one 18 months ago doesn't give an indication of it's final performance, I'm afraid. I'd happily put the SL IQ up against any 24MP sensor on the market. It's a small step behind the M10. That's about it.

Gordon
Logged

JV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 995
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2017, 08:16:38 PM »

the SL is no competition for a fuji XT-2....

With all due respect but you have no idea what you are talking about... 
Logged

pschefz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 309
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2017, 02:04:04 PM »

With all due respect but you have no idea what you are talking about...

the 24mpix Fuji APC sensor is a very nice and capable sensor, the sensor in the SL is pretty mediocre.....the SL has a slight advantage in terms of IQ, any of the fuji's with that sensor have functional advantages....in terms of pure image quality, the SL wins, in terms of pretty much everything else, the fujis win (by probably a bigger margin ) all at a fraction of the price....
the GFX is lightyears ahead of the SL in terms of IQ and only lags behind the SL in AF.....other then that it probably even beats it in functionality....(yes, the SL has 10bit video out which can be nice but the small XT2 has that as well and beats it there as well)....

i just don't see how the SL can be compared to the GFX.....and the only camera that i could think of that does compare somewhat was the fuji line up......the sony A7RII beats the pants off it and IMO the fuji line up is a pretty sensible choice below the top sony in mirrorless.....

and afaik both sony and fuji systems can accept leica M so there is that as well for those who really want and need it....
Logged
schefz.com
artloch.com

JV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 995
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2017, 08:16:30 PM »

the 24mpix Fuji APC sensor is a very nice and capable sensor, the sensor in the SL is pretty mediocre.....

Respectfully but no...  if that is what you want to believe though please go ahead...
Logged

flash

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 154
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2017, 12:12:21 AM »

the 24mpix Fuji APC sensor is a very nice and capable sensor, the sensor in the SL is pretty mediocre.....the SL has a slight advantage in terms of IQ, any of the fuji's with that sensor have functional advantages....in terms of pure image quality, the SL wins, in terms of pretty much everything else, the fujis win (by probably a bigger margin ) all at a fraction of the price....
the GFX is lightyears ahead of the SL in terms of IQ and only lags behind the SL in AF.....other then that it probably even beats it in functionality....(yes, the SL has 10bit video out which can be nice but the small XT2 has that as well and beats it there as well)....

i just don't see how the SL can be compared to the GFX.....and the only camera that i could think of that does compare somewhat was the fuji line up......the sony A7RII beats the pants off it and IMO the fuji line up is a pretty sensible choice below the top sony in mirrorless.....

and afaik both sony and fuji systems can accept leica M so there is that as well for those who really want and need it....

I agree that comparing the SL and GFX is an interesting one. Apart from price range there's zero they have in common.

However the rest of what you said is just plain wrong. I have shot the SL and XPro 2 (same sensor and lenses) side by side. Direct shot comparisons. The Fuji is a fantastic system but doesn't better the SL in any metrics except for size/weight, price and native lens selection. The EVF is vastly better, the battery life is vastly better, importing into Lightroom is many times faster and the build quality is much higher, amoung other things. The 16-55 Fuji lens doesn't have IS (the 24-90 does). The SL has a vastly superior menu layout. M lenses act like natives on the SL. They're cropped on the Fuji and some don't play nice at all on the Sony.

The Fuji's are great cameras. I like mine and use them regularly. However I think you need to actually use an SL for more than a few minutes in a camera shop because right now the ascertains you make are false.

Gordon
Logged

chrismuc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 172
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2017, 04:15:19 PM »

As I said I have both. The SL with current firmware is measurably and noticeably better than the XT2 sensor in both high ISO noise and DR. The Fujifilm 24MP sensor is a great sensor. Just a bit below the SL. The high ISO banding and AF performance of the longer end of the standard zoom were both addressed in firmware long ago. SInce the SL f.w. 2.0 my Reasonably comprehensive Fuji kit has been collecting dust.

Trying one 18 months ago doesn't give an indication of it's final performance, I'm afraid. I'd happily put the SL IQ up against any 24MP sensor on the market. It's a small step behind the M10. That's about it.

Gordon

Hi Flash, can you upload raw comparison files from the SL vs. the X-Pro2?
From what I see comparing the dpreview SL raw files with the files from the Fuji XT-2 (same sensor as X-Pro2, de-mosaicing with Iridient X-developer), Sony A7RII (downscaled to 4000 pixel height) and Fuji GFX 50s (downscaled to 4000 pixel height) is:
- at ISO 100 the Leica SL is the softest (even using the SL 50f1.4 lens) of the four
- at ISO 6400 the Leica SL has most color noise

And reg. lenses, if you read Lloyd Chambers' conclusion about the SL 24-90f2.8-4 (fisheye-like distortion at 24mm which leads to distinctive reduction of corner sharpness after software correction, no really sharp corners at any aperture at any focal length, at mid to long focal lengths significant focus shift to the foreground) I am wondering how you come to the conclusion that the SL lenses and the picture quality of the SL is superior to the Fuji APS-C 24 MP cameras with the really excellent XT lenses.

Actually I never understood Leica's approach with the SL: IMO on one hand for 24 MP resolution today an APS-C camera is sufficient (smaller and fraction of price, the X-T2 is also as fast as the SL), on the other, in the size and for the money of the SL you get the GFX which delivers a far superior IQ and gives you the opportunity for much larger prints, not to mention the upcoming 100 MP version of the camera which will compete with everything up to the PhaseOne IQ3100, the GF lenses are definetely prepared to that resolution.
Logged

pschefz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 309
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2017, 05:21:54 PM »

it would be the first time that firmware increased DR on a sensor....
i have had several leica M digital cameras, so the SL would have been a logical step for me....
the problem of the SL is not the sensor or functions, it is the price....there is just no way to justify it....and even if it was half the price, i would still have to recommend several other cameras instead of it....
i just brought the fuji X 24mpix series bodies into this because they are the closest competition in terms of IQ and fashion statement....of course the 16-55 kit lens does not compare to the 24-90 leica.....but it is also literally 10% of the price....the 18-55 fuji kit lens is IMO (far from perfect) but might just be the best kit lens i have ever seen and used....and the fuji primes are spectacular....
all this without ever getting into real discussion about functions or what is arguably the best AF in mirrorless on the fuji (even sony said they are behind fuji, mentioned them by name....a rare thing for a competitor)....
i do up to a point understand the urge to buy leica lenses but everything else is just bling at this point.....
Logged
schefz.com
artloch.com

JV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 995
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2017, 07:08:51 PM »

the problem of the SL is not the sensor or functions, it is the price....

First you say that the sensor is mediocre... now you say that the sensor is not the problem... can you perhaps make up your mind?
Logged

JV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 995
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2017, 08:07:55 PM »

Hi Flash, can you upload raw comparison files from the SL vs. the X-Pro2?
From what I see comparing the dpreview SL raw files with the files from the Fuji XT-2 (same sensor as X-Pro2, de-mosaicing with Iridient X-developer), Sony A7RII (downscaled to 4000 pixel height) and Fuji GFX 50s (downscaled to 4000 pixel height) is:
- at ISO 100 the Leica SL is the softest (even using the SL 50f1.4 lens) of the four
- at ISO 6400 the Leica SL has most color noise

And reg. lenses, if you read Lloyd Chambers' conclusion about the SL 24-90f2.8-4 (fisheye-like distortion at 24mm which leads to distinctive reduction of corner sharpness after software correction, no really sharp corners at any aperture at any focal length, at mid to long focal lengths significant focus shift to the foreground) I am wondering how you come to the conclusion that the SL lenses and the picture quality of the SL is superior to the Fuji APS-C 24 MP cameras with the really excellent XT lenses.

DPR is fully owned by Amazon.com which sells a lot of Sony and Fuji cameras.  They don't sell a lot of Leica cameras.  They have a vested interested in making Sony and Fuji look better.

That being said, the review of the Leica SL on DPR was actually quite positive (in as far as a Leica review on DPR will ever be positive...).

The Lloyd Chambers issue is a non-issue.  A few posts from the Leica Forum summarizing:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/255186-24-90mm-focus-shift-diglloyd/page-12#entry3085820
https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/255186-24-90mm-focus-shift-diglloyd/page-13#entry3085993
Logged

pschefz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 309
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2017, 12:37:59 AM »

First you say that the sensor is mediocre... now you say that the sensor is not the problem... can you perhaps make up your mind?
the sensor in the SL is a mediocre FF 24 mpix sensor....that alone is not really a huge problem, but if you put a mediocre sensor in a body priced completely out of competition, that is a problem....there are mirror less systems costing a fraction that are just better in every way, resolution, DR, functionality,....there are several DSLRs costing a fraction that are better in every way....there are now 2 DMF systems going head to head in price that completely blow it out of the water in terms of IQ....

i am sorry but even hasselblad figured out that you canít just overcharge customers forever....i am not a big fan of the X1D but they did a lot right with that camera and price is definitely one of them....

there are many tools out there and many reasons to choose what you want to work and play with but digital is rough because the results are right there and often pretty obvious...but if anyone wants to run around and use a leica SL, that is wonderful and great....
Logged
schefz.com
artloch.com

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1832
    • The Last Word
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2017, 11:21:26 AM »

the sensor in the SL is a mediocre FF 24 mpix sensor....that alone is not really a huge problem, but if you put a mediocre sensor in a body priced completely out of competition, that is a problem....there are mirror less systems costing a fraction that are just better in every way, resolution, DR, functionality,....there are several DSLRs costing a fraction that are better in every way....there are now 2 DMF systems going head to head in price that completely blow it out of the water in terms of IQ....

i am sorry but even hasselblad figured out that you canít just overcharge customers forever....i am not a big fan of the X1D but they did a lot right with that camera and price is definitely one of them....

there are many tools out there and many reasons to choose what you want to work and play with but digital is rough because the results are right there and often pretty obvious...but if anyone wants to run around and use a leica SL, that is wonderful and great....

There's something else about the SL. Compared to other 24MP FF mirrorless cameras, it weighs a quite a bit more (173 g more than the a9, 222 g more than the a7RII, for example). A couple of months ago my camera dealer came by my house to take a bunch of gear off my hands. He brought two cameras to tempt me, and both I excluded from consideration when I hefted them. One was the SL.  To the fair, it did have the 50/0.95 on it, but still...

The SL finder was gorgeous, though.

There is one so-far-unmentioned reason to buy a camera like the SL that applies to some. It feels like a camera built with a certain seriousness of purpose. If you enjoy the tactile experience of using it, and if that makes your attitude towards your photography in turn more serious, and makes you wan tto use the camera more, that's all to the good.

Any camera feature that makes you want to use it more is, IMHO, a good thing.

Jim
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 11:27:16 AM by Jim Kasson »
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5951
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2017, 11:57:13 AM »


Any camera feature that makes you want to use it more is, IMHO, a good thing.

Jim

Portability wants me to use a camera more, in my old age ;)

Edmund
Logged

pschefz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 309
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2017, 12:22:39 PM »

There's something else about the SL. Compared to other 24MP FF mirrorless cameras, it weighs a quite a bit more (173 g more than the a9, 222 g more than the a7RII, for example). A couple of months ago my camera dealer came by my house to take a bunch of gear off my hands. He brought two cameras to tempt me, and both I excluded from consideration when I hefted them. One was the SL.  To the fair, it did have the 50/0.95 on it, but still...

The SL finder was gorgeous, though.

There is one so-far-unmentioned reason to buy a camera like the SL that applies to some. It feels like a camera built with a certain seriousness of purpose. If you enjoy the tactile experience of using it, and if that makes your attitude towards your photography in turn more serious, and makes you wan tto use the camera more, that's all to the good.

Any camera feature that makes you want to use it more is, IMHO, a good thing.

Jim

i completely agree about the tactile factor and the importance of wanting to pick up a camera.....
which is why i brought up the X1D....if hasselblad can put a competitive sensor in a luxury body and create that experience and still keep the price competitive, so should leica.....
the Q shows that they can do it....
is the SL body (without sensor AND leica lens) really worth so much extra?
i love the size of the SL finder but found it terribly contrasty (maybe that has changed in firmware?)
Logged
schefz.com
artloch.com

MattBurt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1323
  • Looking for that other shot
    • Matt Burt Photography
Re: Leica SL or Fujifilm GFX 50
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2017, 12:26:44 PM »

If I had the money to spend I'd get the Fuji. Seems to be the most advanced tech and IQ for the buck with lots of adaptability to other lenses.
I'm pretty cheap so instead what I have is the Pentax 645D and I still really like it. The price is right and if you don't mind older lenses you can find some good stuff for not a lot of money.
What it misses is stuff like live view and general responsiveness. It's not a fast camera to use. I use mine mostly for landscapes but also do the occasional portrait with it too. I often like a faster camera for some portraits but that depends on the setting too.
It's CCD as mentioned but dynamic range is still pretty impressive (12.6 Evs) as long as you do not blow out the highlights. Tons of shadow detail in those files and the color is rich and looks more like film than more modern sensors.
I might upgrade to a 645Z one day to continue using my lenses when they get cheap or get the Fuji if I'm feeling flush but the D is still in regular rotation in my collection and for now I still like what I get from it.
Logged
-MattB
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up