Panasonic LX2

[Ray]

I would not use the LX-1 at ISO 400. It can be a bit noisy at ISO 80 - sometimes needing a bit of Noise-Ninja, sometimes not, depending on the image. At ISO 200, it usually needs moderate noise reduction.
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Mark,
Thanks for your opinion. Testing various cameras in the store before buying would probably give one a good idea as to noise but could be fraught with danger as regards resolution. These ultra compact P&S cameras generally don't have tripod mounting or full manual mode with aperture priority. One could easily end up comparing different apertures at different shutter speeds with different degrees of camera shake. Imaging Resource do a pretty good job comparing cameras at various ISO settings shooting the same targets, so I guess I would rely primarily upon their results in making an upgrade choice.

Generally, it seems to me, if the purpose of carrying a small compact everywhere is in order not to miss that interesting shot which so often  gives rise to the lament, "Why didn't I bring my camera?', then such a compact should be as versatile as possible. I notice on the Imaging Resource site, most of their LX1 shots are very much exposed to the right, to the point of overexposure, in order to reduce noise even at low ISOs. Because of the susceptibility to blown highlights with these small cameras, autobracketing is a useful feature. The Sony T1 can take 3 shots at highest image quality in a second or so.

Is shooting RAW with the LX1 not a PITA? You wouldn't be able to do autobracketing in RAW, would you? After the first RAW shot, the camera is inoperable for several seconds, is it not?

I'm actually torn between 3 models, the Canon SD700, the Sony T30 and the Fuji F30. They've each got their strong and weak points. The SD700 has a 4x zoom, IS , very low chroma noise and excellent sharpness. The T30 has the advantage of a non-protruding lens as well as IS, slightly higher resolution but more chroma noise. The F30 has the best high-ISO performance of the three and the greatest dynamic range, but no IS.

Difficult decision   .

[Mark D Segal]

Ray, points of information: the LX-1 does have a tripod socket on the bottom and it does auto-bracketing, taking three pictures. This camera does have quite a substantial feature set considering its size and price point. I don't how the other models you are considering compare in these respects.

I think there's less "danger" testing cameras in and about the store than buying them site-unseen based on web reviews and itemization of specs. I think it's important to get a direct hands-on feel for how they handle and respond taking real world photographs. The reason this is important is that guys like you and me are accustomed to DSLRs and these are far from! For cameras of this kind you'll not be working in laboratory conditions anyhow. I believe it's best to see what they do based on how you'd be normally using them. Taking a number of varied shots with each reduces the risk of fluke outcomes.

[Mark D Segal]

Is shooting RAW with the LX1 not a PITA? You wouldn't be able to do autobracketing in RAW, would you? After the first RAW shot, the camera is inoperable for several seconds, is it not?

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Ray, I didn't respond to this point. Shooting RAW with the LX-1 is NOT a PITA. BUT you are correct that one cannot auto-bracket with RAW. Just for you, I tried timiing the file processing from the instant of exposure until the camera was ready for the next shot. As close as I could do it, somewhere between three and four seconds for a RAW file. Here is where judgment sets in. I'll pay the price of a few seconds to have a RAW file, because post-capture processing is so important to maximize image quality.

[Ray]

I'll pay the price of a few seconds to have a RAW file, because post-capture processing is so important to maximize image quality.
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Thanks for doing the test, Mark. I find it more frustrating trying to choose a compact P&S than a DSLR. They all seem to have a wider gap between the pros and cons that makes any decision quite difficult. Having a RAW capability on the LX1 seems to be really needed because of high noise. The FinePix F30 probably doesn't need the RAW capability as much, but it appears to need a contrast adjustment, which it doesn't have. Image stabilisation, autobracketing and zoom in video mode would also be useful, all of which the Sony T30 has.

I think basically I want a Sony T30 with the low noise capability, and shutter and aperture priority modes of the FinePix F30.

[Mark D Segal]

Thanks for doing the test, Mark. I find it more frustrating trying to choose a compact P&S than a DSLR. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75466\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree with you about the choice problem - now that you're down to three you're doing well, Ray  !

This is the point at which individual needs and preferences are determinative. Hard to advise. The reason I told Oscar the choice was easy for me is because I absolutely wanted the flexibility and quality control afforded by a RAW file. That eliminated almost everything on the market. Then I read and re-read Michael's review, where he clearly states you can get portfolio quality prints from this camera using RAW format, lower ISO and some noise reduction. My experience with it confirms that. If this isn't the kind of output you're targeting for the P&S, then obviously RAW becomes less important. If you want low noise at high ISO you wouldn't buy a Lumix. So as usual, the choice problem boils down to a careful matching of your priorities with the cameras' features. Do let us know what you decide!

[Ray]

Mark,
I'm leaning strongly towards the Sony DSC-T30. I've just discovered that the 640x480 video mode allows use of the zoom whilst shooting (which is an unusual but useful feature), as well as image stabilisation. Whilst the image quality for stills at ISO 400 is hardly better than that of my T1, at base ISO of 80, image quality is substantially better as can be seen in the following 300% crops. The difference is more substantail than the difference between my D60 and 20D.

[attachment=940:attachment]

Whilst noise at ISO 800 cannot compare with the FinePix F30, the IS feature seems to have the usual 2 stop advantage, so noise at ISO 200 should be compared to the FinePix at ISO 800, except in situations where subject movement is a problem.

The Sony T30 also has a tripod socket, which the T1 lacks. It seems a very worthwhile upgrade and the high price can be partly offset by the fact I already have 1.256GB of Memory Stick Pro Duo. Perhaps I should also invest in an ultra light monopod   .

[Mark D Segal]

Hi Ray - sounds like you're zero-ing in on a decision that suits your needs - but the monopod? Could make the shirt-pocket tip a bit

[Ray]

Hi Ray - sounds like you're zero-ing in on a decision that suits your needs - but the monopod? Could make the shirt-pocket tip a bit
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I can get a Velbon Ultra Stick monopod that weighs just 210 grams, about 30% heavier than the T30. I could have the T30 in my shirt pocket and the Ultra Stick in my trouser pocket.  

[Mark D Segal]

I can get a Velbon Ultra Stick monopod that weighs just 210 grams, about 30% heavier than the T30. I could have the T30 in my shirt pocket and the Ultra Stick in my trouser pocket. 
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I was tempted to reply something rude but I won't - seriously, though, does that monopod have any kind of small tilt/rotation mechanism, and will extend to eye level? If not, could be hard to use successfully, as convenient as it may be for better stabilizing the camera. The problem you're addressing is a real one - I find keeping my arms extended to see the LCD properly really disadvantages steadiness, especially when pressing the shutter button.

[Ray]

...does that monopod have any kind of small tilt/rotation mechanism, and will extend to eye level? [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75545\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'll have to check this out. It's in stock at my local camera store. It's definitley not eye level, so crouching down would be necessary, but that's okay. Nothing wrong with my legs.

I did have some trouble finding ultra light monopods on the net. Is there possibly a carbon fibre model that's even lighter than 210gms, ot taller than this Velbon aluminium model, or more compact when collapsed?

[Mark D Segal]

Ray, did you try these guys - here's 5 pages of monopods:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller...earch&Q=&ci=397

You'd have to click on the "more info" links for the more prospective models and see whether they are what you want.

[Ray]

Mark,
There are clearly going to be more options outside of Australia, but unfortunately I don't have the time to wait on a shipment since I'm leaving in a week or so. Having looked at the site you linked, there's really not much in the way of specifications on the cheap and light monopods listed.

I'm surprised that the makers of these ultra compact digicams do not also offer an ultra light monopod as an accessory.

A 150gm, 6" when collapsed, 8 section, 4ft monopod would be fine.  

[situgrrl]

k, going to ask a dumb question now...why do you want a monopod?

Have you seen the gorillapod for instance?  I've not used one but the idea seems good and they are sweet-shop cheap.  FWIW my most used tripod is a manfrotto 709B - even with a dslr and 24-135 attached, it's good and stable.

[Fotophil]

My LX1 does have a tripod mounting thread in the base

[Ray]

Have you seen the gorillapod for instance?  I've not used one but the idea seems good and they are sweet-shop cheap. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75675\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for mentioning that. It's the first time I've heard of it. Seems like a great idea. I've ordered one   .

[Ray]

It's a pity my Sony T1 doesn't have a tripod socket because the gorillapod would be more useful with that camera. I had a look at the upgraded DSC T30 in the store yesterday. The only thing that stopped me buying it there and then was the thought I could get it at a lower price overseas. I was very impressed with the very noticeable effects of image stabilisation on that very impressive 3" wide LCD screen.

It seems that one significant feature of this camera that is not widely known is the facility of being able to use the zoom whilst shooting in video mode. I've seen that mentioned in only one review. The salesman in the store wasn't aware of it.

Even though video capability at its highest quality is a progressive scan 640x480 at 30fps, the compression is so great on these small cameras, the picture quality generally doesn't match that from a dedicated mini DV camera. However, my impression is that conventional IS in video cameras tends to reduce image resolution through some process of pixel shifting. I would expect the IS in the T30 would only enhance image quality. This combination of IS and zoom could make the video facility worth using.

[jbarkway]

Today I took delivery of an LX2. Once I have it figured out, and if anyone's still interested, I'll post my experiences.

To be honest, the camera offers such a lot that, for me at least, this outweighs the noise problems. We shall see if I'm right...

In any case, it will only be used as a back-up and for snapshots so ultimate quality isn't the issue. For that I have my large-format film camera. :-)

[Mark D Segal]

Today I took delivery of an LX2. Once I have it figured out, and if anyone's still interested, I'll post my experiences.

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Yes, please do share your observations.