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Author Topic: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider  (Read 1761 times)

narikin

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Here's a test of my two 80mm Phase One lenses:
Older generation Phase One/Mamiya 80mm (non LS) on Left, New Blue ring (2016) Schneider LS on right.  Both at f4, IQ100, heavy tripod using ES. Best examples of many focus attempts, using live view.

The older lens clearly is the better one here. At f5.6 and up things even out much more, but still...

Maybe I got lucky and have an exceptional older lens, or maybe my new blue ring one is a poor example. But at $4/5000 per lens isn't QC supposed to mean *no* bad examples?!
This is about 2/3 way out from center of frame: not extreme corners, nor central.

If you don't need LS, (and many of us don't) then, you can safely get the older generation it seems



Link for 100% view
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MichaelEzra

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2017, 03:43:09 PM »

I printed 60" wide from Mamiya ZD file (22MP) shot in landscape orientation through the older 80mm AF F2.8 lens, came out absolutely excellent, great lens!

henrikfoto

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2017, 05:35:33 PM »

Thank you!

 This is very interesting and a bit depressing. The new blue ring lenses are so expensive that
of course there should be no bad copies at all. The right picture is just too bad for a top quality
lens for 4-5.000$ 😝

When you buy a Zeiss lens for this price it will never be a bad copy. Thats one of the things you
pay for with Zeiss. (and I thought Phase One wanted to follow that path)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 05:39:04 PM by henrikfoto »
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Christopher

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2017, 05:12:29 PM »

The problem is twofold. From my experience the older 80D is the better lens. However, only a amazing copy. I owned at least 4 none LS and 5 LS copies. Two of the BR.

What I can say is that both BR are really good and very close to the best none LS lens. The other copies are all uneven and decentered. I have the same experience from other focal lengths.

I would say the BR lenses have a much lower sample variation. I always test a lens when I get it and won't keep it if it's not up to my expectations, because you are right that a lens costing 4K+ should be good.


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henrikfoto

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2017, 02:38:12 AM »

The old Mamiya lenses can be bought used for a few hundreds. They should not come close to the 5000$ blue-ring lenses. If these are not better than all of the old plastic-feeling Mamiya lenses I think they will have big problems to sell them in the future. Maybe itˋs time to go to Zeiss?
I think people who buy the new Phase one lenses donˋt care much about the price, but they want the best
lenses for their work. When you pay tousands of $ for new lenses you shouldnˋt need to test if itˋs good or not. That should be guaranteed in the price you pay!
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ced

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2017, 08:17:51 AM »

Speak with your agent, just maybe you have one of those off days lens & you might be able to test another...
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2017, 04:03:39 PM »

There are some legacy lenses that perform very well, especially stopped down. We see it with many types of lenses - Mamiya is not immune to this.

The biggest difference I have seen between, for example the 80mm lenses, is that the Phase One D and Schneider LS versions (BR and non BR) perform better wide open and also exhibit less chromatic aberration than the legacy AF version. Stopped down, the differences are much harder to discern. I found the Phase One 80mm D and Schneider 80mm LS/LS BR lenses to be virtually identical. They may share the same optical design. Anyone who states they have encountered variations - I don't doubt this, it is entirely possible. It is rare that I have seen significant variation in new lenses - especially Blue Ring - on the level where there is a clear advantage for one lens over the other.

More commonly I simply see differences - across the frame, if broken into 20 different quadrants, the middle upper right on one lens is slightly weaker than another, but the lower left corner is slightly stronger, with the end result being that the lenses are roughly equivalent, just different. It is easiest to notice this when comparing many different lenses, but especially many versions of the same lens.

But to be sure, I feel it is possible to get a "bad day" lens from time to time from anyone, regardless of the price. In fact, the more expensive and more hands on, then perhaps the more likely, as human intervention increases the potential for error (but also provides positive contributes to the process as well).

I have not experienced perfect uniformity with any lens that we've ever received, and this includes all of the legendary lenses you can think of, Rodenstock, Schneider, Zeiss, Leica, etc. If it happens, it seems extremely rare.


Steve Hendrix/CI

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Christopher

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2017, 06:04:53 PM »

Sorry Steve, but this clearly shouts decentering which is a common problem. It's there on most lenses. And if it is a perfect copy it shouldn't be there.

It is far less on the new BR designs. And on many modern lenses. All GFX lenses I have tested are nearly free of them. As are the copies of the 35/45/150 Phase lenses.

The problem was horrible on phase one lenses before the BR "upgrade". One could say quality control wasn't great at all.

Let's take the 80 LS for example. Over the last years I owned and tested 9 copies and 3 BR copies.

Out of these 9 copies only one was great. Don't get me wrong, some of the rest weren't bad, just not perfect and had a weaker side/corner.

The 3 BR lenses were much better. One was very close to the best none BR and the other two were the same in terms of evenness, but a tad sharper.

All in all I would say that most new BR lenses are quite good. The new designs amazing. The weakest is certainly the 55 and none BR 28.

At and end note, my GFX lenses are fine so are the 32/40/70 Rodenstock the 90 shows or when shifted to the extrem.




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Steve Hendrix

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2017, 10:27:59 AM »

Sorry Steve, but this clearly shouts decentering which is a common problem. It's there on most lenses. And if it is a perfect copy it shouldn't be there.

It is far less on the new BR designs. And on many modern lenses. All GFX lenses I have tested are nearly free of them. As are the copies of the 35/45/150 Phase lenses.

The problem was horrible on phase one lenses before the BR "upgrade". One could say quality control wasn't great at all.

Let's take the 80 LS for example. Over the last years I owned and tested 9 copies and 3 BR copies.

Out of these 9 copies only one was great. Don't get me wrong, some of the rest weren't bad, just not perfect and had a weaker side/corner.

The 3 BR lenses were much better. One was very close to the best none BR and the other two were the same in terms of evenness, but a tad sharper.

All in all I would say that most new BR lenses are quite good. The new designs amazing. The weakest is certainly the 55 and none BR 28.

At and end note, my GFX lenses are fine so are the 32/40/70 Rodenstock the 90 shows or when shifted to the extrem.




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I understand.

What seems like a perfect lens is often revealed to be not quite perfect when compared with many others. What I am really describing is the matter of degree that a lens is or is not perfect. In my experience there is no 100% perfect lens. And certainly the Blue Ring lenses have narrowed this gap compared to previous generations.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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ced

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2017, 01:13:26 PM »

So the question is with all the too & fro what should the original poster do with his seemingly not up to scratch lens?
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2017, 01:58:13 PM »

So the question is with all the too & fro what should the original poster do with his seemingly not up to scratch lens?


They should bring the matter up with the source of their purchase.

I know how we would respond - something is not right or up to par with that lens, and that needs to be resolved. I wish Narikin luck in resolving it and hopefully his purchasing source is reasonable and committed to the concept of taking care of their clients.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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narikin

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2017, 06:21:45 PM »

There are some legacy lenses that perform very well, especially stopped down. We see it with many types of lenses - Mamiya is not immune to this.

The biggest difference I have seen between, for example the 80mm lenses, is that the Phase One D and Schneider LS versions (BR and non BR) perform better wide open and also exhibit less chromatic aberration than the legacy AF version. Stopped down, the differences are much harder to discern. I found the Phase One 80mm D and Schneider 80mm LS/LS BR lenses to be virtually identical. They may share the same optical design. Anyone who states they have encountered variations - I don't doubt this, it is entirely possible. It is rare that I have seen significant variation in new lenses - especially Blue Ring - on the level where there is a clear advantage for one lens over the other.

Steve Hendrix/CI

Thanks for the information, but I think you have not noticed that the test was at F4. It is not stopped down. It is a wider aperture test, when the expensive new BR lenses should be pulling clear, as you suggest. The fact that it is inferior at this wide aperture indicates a real problem.

I personally don't need LS, and will not be buying another BR lens unless there is no regular (older generation) Phase/Mamiya option available. Mamiya were always a great lens maker with excellent QC, It seems Phase are not delivering the Quality Control they should be at this price.

Sadly it is now 1.5 years since I bought it, (just never got around to testing till now) so I doubt I can return/swap it. I also don't see why some other poor chump should be saddled with this lens. At these extremely high prices Phase should be very concerned, and getting onto their manufacturer, for serious improvements.

To everyone else: save your money and buy the older generation!


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Steve Hendrix

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2017, 06:54:22 PM »

Thanks for the information, but I think you have not noticed that the test was at F4. It is not stopped down. It is a wider aperture test, when the expensive new BR lenses should be pulling clear, as you suggest. The fact that it is inferior at this wide aperture indicates a real problem.

I personally don't need LS, and will not be buying another BR lens unless there is no regular (older generation) Phase/Mamiya option available. Mamiya were always a great lens maker with excellent QC, It seems Phase are not delivering the Quality Control they should be at this price.

Sadly it is now 1.5 years since I bought it, (just never got around to testing till now) so I doubt I can return/swap it. I also don't see why some other poor chump should be saddled with this lens. At these extremely high prices Phase should be very concerned, and getting onto their manufacturer, for serious improvements.

To everyone else: save your money and buy the older generation!


Hi Narikin -

Yes, I was aware of what you posted, as others were discussing the topic in general, I was corresponding regarding the general topic of old vs new lenses, not your specific lens.

Regardless of the time elapsed, I would still present the lens to your purchase source for a resolution. This performance is abnormal.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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Paul2660

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2017, 08:47:44 PM »

It's fair to note, that I believe even the Blue Ring lenses are still made in Japan, i.e. more than likely by Mamiya.  Designed by Schneider, but not made in Germany.  That is true at least for the 240, 35, 40-80, and 75-150.  All are made in Japan.

P1 keeps the manufacturing details very close to the vest, not sure if the Blue Rings are made on a separate line or what.  The lens lineup may be all Mamiya is making now as I don't believe they still sell the Mamiya versions (for a long time Mamiya sold LS versions of the P1 LS lenses under their name until P1 purchased Mamiya several years ago).  The Blue Ring were only sold as P1 lenses as far as I know.

The even older non LS Mamiya versions like the 75-150, 55, 45 (F2.8) and 35mm F 3.5 are also still good, but don't show the same level of contrast that I see with the modern glass.  I used to think that such an issue was easy to fix in post, but it's not always the case.  The newer lenses have an excellent image capture.

Back to the issue, that particular lens is off center and needs to go back to the dealer and P1/Mamiya for repair.

Paul Caldwell
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rcs100

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2017, 08:34:57 AM »

Everyone seems to agree the older lens is clearly better.  After spending some time carefully looking at both images at full resolution, I can find no difference at all between the two images.  Would appreciate someone pointing out what is different between the two.
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henrikfoto

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2017, 12:03:45 PM »

Is the fucus micro-adjusted for both these lenses?
I have seen a big difference on focus after this short adjustment on all my lenses.
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narikin

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2017, 02:35:00 PM »

Is the fucus micro-adjusted for both these lenses?
I have seen a big difference on focus after this short adjustment on all my lenses.

Both lenses were focused using live view 100% on a 4K screen, and even when peak found I focus bracket-ed to be sure of optimum result. They simply couldn't get any better focus.

(Incidentally I think Phase should build a Focus bracket option into the XF - with Focus Stacking already on there, they've done most of the work, just give us that option with 3/5/7 brackets-steps without having to go through the whole FS setting procedure)

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Steve Hendrix

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2017, 02:37:10 PM »

Is the fucus micro-adjusted for both these lenses?
I have seen a big difference on focus after this short adjustment on all my lenses.


This is true for auto focus, however Narikin indicated he utilized live view, which the focus trimming is not going to have any impact with.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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henrikfoto

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2017, 03:18:40 PM »

Sorry! I was a bit quick!
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mediumcool

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Re: 80mm Phase One lens test: old Mamiya/Phase vs new Blue Ring Schneider
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2017, 10:03:55 AM »

Perhaps the Emperor’s G-string requires a visit to the laundromat.
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