Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Sony A7Rii and Leica Summarit-M 35&50mm. Would they work nicely together?  (Read 828 times)

Raul_82

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 289
    • My Website

Has anyone tried this combo? I'm picking up this camera now that the price has come down, but having no need of ultrafast lenses I rather have lenses that are as compact as possible, without loosing image quality. The Summarit-M lenses from Leica seems small enough and do not have an astronomical price tag, even cheaper if buying used. I'm interested in the 35mm and 50mm.

Any issues with color shifts near the edges of the frame, loss of sharpness or other incompatibilities?
Can these lenses resolve for the Sony sensor?






Logged

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2346

I have the newer version of the 35mm (now f/2.4 and ASPH despite no change in optical design or construction!) but haven't tried it with my A7rii. Will do and then report back.

-Dave-
Logged

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2346

Okay, here's a test shot with the A7rii + 35/2.4 Summarit combo. From my backyard (with a resident rabbit looking on, unimpressed & used to me ambling around while holding strange objects up to my face) at ISO 160 and the lens at f/5.6. Processed from the RAW in Affinity Photo on my iPad and downsampled to ~3000x2000. I made no adjustments beyond setting the color temp to ~5500K and a slight clarity bump up. Below I'll post a comparison pic of the same scene taken a few minutes earlier with my M9-P and the Summarit.

-Dave-
Logged

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2346

And for comparison here's the 35 Summarit on my M9-P. I took this 5–6 minutes earlier, and the framing isn't precisely the same as in the Sony pic. Also at ISO 160 and f/5.6, with the same color balance and clarity tweaks. The church building makes an excellent moiré magnet, which really shows up here via the M9's 18mp sensor compared to the Sony's 42mp chip.

(I should note that I've manually coded the Summarit as a "35mm f/2 ASPH" since I've never bothered to install the firmware update that recognizes the Summarit 6-bit codes. I use the M9 with older, uncoded lenses 99% of the time.)

-Dave-
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 07:58:51 PM by Telecaster »
Logged

Raul_82

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 289
    • My Website

And for comparison here's the 35 Summarit on my M9-P. I took this 5–6 minutes earlier, and the framing isn't precisely the same as in the Sony pic. Also at ISO 160 and f/5.6, with the same color balance and clarity tweaks. The church building makes an excellent moiré magnet, which really shows up here via the M9's 18mp sensor compared to the Sony's 42mp chip.

(I should note that I've manually coded the Summarit as a "35mm f/2 ASPH" since I've never bothered to install the firmware update that recognizes the Summarit 6-bit codes. I use the M9 with older, uncoded lenses 99% of the time.)

-Dave-

Thanks for taking the time to do the comparison Dave!

From what I see, the lens seems to work fine with the camera. I do notice soft corners on the Sony photo, wonder if that's just the lens performance or the fact that it's too close to the chip.
Just realized that Zeiss Loxia lenses could also work for me, I'll see if I can rent those to check them out.
Logged

Paul Roark

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 320

The Sony a7rii cover glass is rather thick.  Leica M lenses below 90mm are generally going to have some smearing in the corners and color artifacts.  Even my 75mm M shows smearing.  The Kolarivision ultra thin coverglass replacement opens up a lot of the M optics, but then you lose the ability to have the outstanding Loxia 21mm work well.  And even with the Kolarivision UT glass, there will likely be some color artifacts. 

The cover glass problem with today's sensors is a real pain.  It becomes part of the optical formula.  Lenses not designed with that glass in the mix will show it unless the ray angle is very mild.  As a result, though I'm not entirely happy with the compromise, I'm not using any of my Leica M glass below 90mm on the Sony with the thick glass.  The WATE 16-21 works quite well also, but not as good as on the thinner glass conversion, and I now carry the Loxia 21 instead of the WATE.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Logged

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2346

Thanks for taking the time to do the comparison Dave!

From what I see, the lens seems to work fine with the camera. I do notice soft corners on the Sony photo, wonder if that's just the lens performance or the fact that it's too close to the chip.
Just realized that Zeiss Loxia lenses could also work for me, I'll see if I can rent those to check them out.

You're welcome. The softer corners in the Sony pic are likely due to the astigmatism issue Paul mentions: the thickness of the filter/glass layers in front of the sensor can cause blurring with lenses that sit close to the sensor but aren't designed for Sony's cameras. This is why I rarely use wider rangefinder lenses with my A7rii. I don't see color artifacts, though (beyond some purple stuff in the corners due to high exposure/contrast levels…the M9 pic has a bit of this too), which is a better result than I get with most older RF wides.

Definitely try out the Loxias! A friend of mine has the whole set and really likes 'em. If I weren't a rangefinder nut I'd probably get 'em too (I have the Zeiss M mount 21/35/50mm lenses the equivalent Loxias are based on).

-Dave-
Logged

Paul Roark

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 320

If you have a collection of Leica M lenses, and you want the best performance from a Sony a7r with those lenses, consider the Kolarivision ultra thin coverglass replacement route.  The lenses dedicated to the Sony a7 glass will not work well, which includes the Loxia line.  However, the M glass below 90mm will probably work almost as good as on the M9, but with higher resolution.  I finally sold my M9 because the Sony - M glass combo got to the point where, at least for black and white, the M9 could not longer compete with the Sony with the ultra thin glass.

The ZM 50mm f/2 is amazing with the UT glass.  My 35mm Voigtlander f/1.8 is also amazing, but it does show some magenta cast around the edges - mild, but there in a very small amout.  Since I do B&W, it's irrelevant.

The 28mm f/2.8 M lens is Leica's most compact, and it also does not do as well as the less compact wides even with the UT glass. 

As much as I like the M glass with the Sony and the UT coverglass, I will take my Sony with the OEM thickness glass on trips because I cannot find any optic that can match the Loxia 21mm with the OEM thickness glass.  Sadly, that sticks me with the Zony 35mm, which is second rate compared to the Voigtlander 35 f/1.8 on the Sony with the UT glass, at least for B&W and for someone like me who likes good manual focus.  The Loxia 35's MTF is not particularly encouraging.  The design of that lens suggests its just a re-warmed Biogon.  It takes more than that to match the performance of modern wide angle that uses aspherics, etc. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Logged

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2346

Photos I've taken with the Loxia 35mm look lovely, whatever the MTF specs may be. I love the ZM version too on my M cameras. The ZM is a lens that measures "okay" but renders "oooh!" To my eyes anyway.

It's a "horses for courses" thing, but I'll take a rangefinder camera over any current Sony model any day. I've come close to unloading my Sony gear multiple times due to various things, but the Ms are staying. It's not about specs but rather how I see with different cameras. I learned photography with RFs so they feel like second nature to me too. YMMV.

-Dave-
Logged

Raul_82

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 289
    • My Website

You're welcome. The softer corners in the Sony pic are likely due to the astigmatism issue Paul mentions: the thickness of the filter/glass layers in front of the sensor can cause blurring with lenses that sit close to the sensor but aren't designed for Sony's cameras. This is why I rarely use wider rangefinder lenses with my A7rii. I don't see color artifacts, though (beyond some purple stuff in the corners due to high exposure/contrast levels…the M9 pic has a bit of this too), which is a better result than I get with most older RF wides.

Definitely try out the Loxias! A friend of mine has the whole set and really likes 'em. If I weren't a rangefinder nut I'd probably get 'em too (I have the Zeiss M mount 21/35/50mm lenses the equivalent Loxias are based on).

-Dave-

I will, for sure. I actually liked the older Zeiss aesthetic, as opposed to what the Loxias look like, but of course that's second to image quality.
Logged

Raul_82

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 289
    • My Website

If you have a collection of Leica M lenses, and you want the best performance from a Sony a7r with those lenses, consider the Kolarivision ultra thin coverglass replacement route.  The lenses dedicated to the Sony a7 glass will not work well, which includes the Loxia line.  However, the M glass below 90mm will probably work almost as good as on the M9, but with higher resolution.  I finally sold my M9 because the Sony - M glass combo got to the point where, at least for black and white, the M9 could not longer compete with the Sony with the ultra thin glass.

The ZM 50mm f/2 is amazing with the UT glass.  My 35mm Voigtlander f/1.8 is also amazing, but it does show some magenta cast around the edges - mild, but there in a very small amout.  Since I do B&W, it's irrelevant.

The 28mm f/2.8 M lens is Leica's most compact, and it also does not do as well as the less compact wides even with the UT glass. 

As much as I like the M glass with the Sony and the UT coverglass, I will take my Sony with the OEM thickness glass on trips because I cannot find any optic that can match the Loxia 21mm with the OEM thickness glass.  Sadly, that sticks me with the Zony 35mm, which is second rate compared to the Voigtlander 35 f/1.8 on the Sony with the UT glass, at least for B&W and for someone like me who likes good manual focus.  The Loxia 35's MTF is not particularly encouraging.  The design of that lens suggests its just a re-warmed Biogon.  It takes more than that to match the performance of modern wide angle that uses aspherics, etc. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Seems like there's no killer 35mm for the A7R. I do have the Sigma 35 and 50mm Art, which I could use with the adapter, but I want to keep the Sony system as compact as possible.
The thin glass would definitely be the way to go if I owned some Leica gass already, which I don't.
For now the Loxia option seems the one that makes more sense to me.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 12:36:50 AM by Raul_82 »
Logged

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2346

Seems like there's no killer 35mm for the A7R. I do have the Sigma 35 and 50mm Art, which I could use with the adapter, but I want to keep the Sony system as compact as possible.
The thin glass would definitely be the way to go if I owned some Leica gass already, which I don't.
For now the Loxia option seems the one that makes more sense to me.

I think if Zeiss comes out with a Loxia version of their ZM 35/1.4 they'll have a lens that makes both the sharpness and the tonality folks happy. It's by far the finest fast 35mm I've ever owned or used. It's also kinda bulky and weighty on an M camera. Balances better on a Sony A7x or A9 but has the usual corner astigmatism issue.

-Dave-
Logged

scooby70

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 402

It'll be interesting to see what the new Sony mount Voigtlander 35mm f1.4 is like.
Logged

adriantyler

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15

interesting thread, just a quick question, my voightlander 15mm asph III works GREAT on the AR7II
this glass thing then, it only affects certain lenses?
Logged

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2346

Adrian, v.iii of the Voigt 15mm was designed with Sony cameras partially in mind. There's even an FE mount version available. Thus the fine performance. I've also got one (in addition to an early v.i) and have used it on the Sony a couple times. Bought it to give me a very wide option on my (27x18mm sensor) M8.2s.

-Dave-
Logged

adriantyler

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15
Re: Sony A7Rii and Leica Summarit-M 35&50mm. Would they work nicely together?
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2017, 02:03:38 AM »

thanks, dave
glad i found this thread, i was thinking of a leica 50 to compliment the elmar macro 90, guess i'll stick with the sony/zeiss 55.
Logged

Paul Roark

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 320
Re: Sony A7Rii and Leica Summarit-M 35&50mm. Would they work nicely together?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2017, 10:29:19 AM »

I was hopeful the 15mm Voigtlander M mount would work on the Sony with the Kolarivision ultra think cover glass.  It didn't.  The color fringing was terrible.  I returned the lens.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Logged

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2346
Re: Sony A7Rii and Leica Summarit-M 35&50mm. Would they work nicely together?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2017, 09:03:24 PM »

For kicks here's another quickie "comparison," this time between a Leica M9 and Sony A7rii with the v.iii Voigtländer 15mm Heliar mounted. Lens at f/8, which I think is the optimum speed/performance aperture. ISO 320 with both cameras…another dull evening. M9 pic first, and again the framing between the two is close but not quite the same. I goosed the shadows a bit with the M9 pic (I didn't wanna go far with this) but still the Sony's greater dynamic range gives it some advantage. No lens coding with the M9, and no compensation for vignetting with either camera. Interestingly the Sony is the more severe moiré generator with this lens, at least when the pics are downsampled to 2048 pixels wide. Could be an Affinity Photo thing.

-Dave-
Logged

adriantyler

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15
Re: Sony A7Rii and Leica Summarit-M 35&50mm. Would they work nicely together?
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2017, 09:56:56 AM »

I was hopeful the 15mm Voigtlander M mount would work on the Sony with the Kolarivision ultra think cover glass.  It didn't.  The color fringing was terrible.  I returned the lens.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


Paul

On my A7RII the Voight 15mm version III m mount that i have works great, no smearing, I use the canon TS17 for pro work, so i have something good to compare it with! And I've made some BIG prints off of it.

But if I'm traveling or for personal work the Voight (ok it not as great as the canon 17mm, but it's 90% there) is the one i grab because of it's size!

Sony A7RII, 15mm voight, 35mm rx1 camera, 55mm 1.8 sony and 90mm macro elmar.   The lightest and best camera bag I've ever had! For me of course!

http://www.adriantyler.net/
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up