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Author Topic: Hasselblad X1D 30mm lens unsharp?  (Read 7402 times)

hubell

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Re: Hasselblad X1D 30mm lens unsharp?
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2017, 04:48:16 pm »

I would love to do the Siemens Star test, but I can't seem to get one of those test patterns anywhere. There are no results on Amazon for a "Siemens Star". Do I just print one out myself?

As for the flashlight test, I want to do that test too, but I seem to have difficulty following your instructions correctly. A few questions:

3. Where do I focus exactly? Does it matter? I've read instructions that tells me to focus as closely as possible, and also others that tell me to focus at the flashlight and then just twist the focus ring a little bit so the flashlight isn't perfectly in focus.


May I ask HOW you are focusing? Based upon my experience with the X1D,  I strongly recommend that you do your testing by using manual focus in magnified Live View and not moving the camera after you focus. I generally line up the thing I want to focus on in the center of the frame, manually focusing on that in Live View and making an exposure. Then, I reorient the camera so that the thing I focused on is in each of the 4 corners, refocus and shoot exposures. AFAIK, this test should be pretty foolproof in terms of whether the lens is decentered. I have checked my own copy of the XCD 30mm lens. Not only is it not decentered, it is extremely sharp right into the corners.
One other point to note with the X1D lenses when you are evaluating how good the lenses are. Hasselblad X1D files are not "cooked". The default sharpening settings in LR are seriously inadequate. My default settings are Amount=50-60, Radius=.7-.8, and Detail=70.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 07:59:59 pm by hubell »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Hasselblad X1D 30mm lens unsharp?
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2017, 12:12:13 pm »

May I ask HOW you are focusing? Based upon my experience with the X1D,  I strongly recommend that you do your testing by using manual focus in magnified Live View and not moving the camera after you focus. I generally line up the thing I want to focus on in the center of the frame, manually focusing on that in Live View and making an exposure. Then, I reorient the camera so that the thing I focused on is in each of the 4 corners, refocus and shoot exposures. AFAIK, this test should be pretty foolproof in terms of whether the lens is decentered. I have checked my own copy of the XCD 30mm lens. Not only is it not decentered, it is extremely sharp right into the corners.
One other point to note with the X1D lenses when you are evaluating how good the lenses are. Hasselblad X1D files are not "cooked". The default sharpening settings in LR are seriously inadequate. My default settings are Amount=50-60, Radius=.7-.8, and Detail=70.

You are recommending a different test than I am. I am recommending -- and providing graphs to show -- sufficient target distance so that refocusing at the corners is not necessary if you want the defocus error to be below a certain CoC diameter.

Not refocusing on the corners allows measurement of field curvature and field tilt. Field tilt is one of the reasons most specified for rejecting a lens.

Refocusing on the corners introduces a new error source: differential focus errors. You may be able to do your version of this test and calibrate them out, but I believe that's too complicated for most people.  The OOF PSF test with the LED flashlight is much harder to screw up, yet you'd be surprised how many people have trouble with it.

Jim

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Hasselblad X1D 30mm lens unsharp?
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2017, 08:47:00 pm »

You are recommending a different test than I am. I am recommending -- and providing graphs to show -- sufficient target distance so that refocusing at the corners is not necessary if you want the defocus error to be below a certain CoC diameter.

Not refocusing on the corners allows measurement of field curvature and field tilt. Field tilt is one of the reasons most specified for rejecting a lens.

Hi Jim,

IMHO, the two types of tests do not have the exact same goals. However, they may both achieve one (of several) common goal(s)

If a lens is decentered (which I think is a relatively common flaw, in varying degrees of severeness), then it seems to me that it's impossible to achieve equal focus/resolution in all 4 corners. The shift of one or more lens elements/groups is bound to negatively affect (at least) one corner more than the others. Wouldn't a perfectly centered lens also exhibit equal and symmetrical loss of resolution in all corners?

So, regardless of the method used, either optimal refocusing for each individual corner after repositioning or repositioning without refocusing and depending on DOF, should both lead to the same conclusion. However, refocusing will allow accurate fine-tuning for commonly used subject distances, while depending on DOF may require long subject distances to achieve adequate DOF to be the resolution limiting factor instead of the lens itself. I prefer the lens itself being the limiting factor if the lens is to be tested.

I believe that a Siemens star chart allows the quantification of optimal limiting resolution best in the case of refocusing. While (approximately) rotating the optical axis perpendicular to the surface of the test target, the (more or less) slightly non-plane-parallel orientation of subject plane and sensor plane will introduce some asymmetry in orientation of the limiting resolution, it is still the highest limiting resolution at the four corners that should match (at different angles). The benefit of using the Siemens star chart is that the optimal corner differences can be quantified (and thus qualified as significant or not).

I've personally experienced (and received feedback from others about) multiple cases of subsequently tested lenses with different/quantified corner resolutions (by using refocused sinusoidally modulated Siemens Star charts), before settling on a specific copy. Some of those tests showed superior resolution of a single corner, but different and lower resolution of all other corners  And preferred/common focus distance should not play a role in decentering issues, a decentered lens usually remains decentered at all subject distances.

Other tests may allow to demonstrate/quantify other aberrations, but if a lens is significantly decentered, that's going to complicate all other tests for detection of different aberrations. That's why it's the first thing I'd like to eliminate from the checklist, when purchasing a new lens, or checking a compromised lens.

Cheers,
Bart
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Hasselblad X1D 30mm lens unsharp?
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2017, 10:20:08 am »

Hi Jim,

IMHO, the two types of tests do not have the exact same goals. However, they may both achieve one (of several) common goal(s)

If a lens is decentered (which I think is a relatively common flaw, in varying degrees of severeness), then it seems to me that it's impossible to achieve equal focus/resolution in all 4 corners. The shift of one or more lens elements/groups is bound to negatively affect (at least) one corner more than the others. Wouldn't a perfectly centered lens also exhibit equal and symmetrical loss of resolution in all corners?

So, regardless of the method used, either optimal refocusing for each individual corner after repositioning or repositioning without refocusing and depending on DOF, should both lead to the same conclusion. However, refocusing will allow accurate fine-tuning for commonly used subject distances, while depending on DOF may require long subject distances to achieve adequate DOF to be the resolution limiting factor instead of the lens itself. I prefer the lens itself being the limiting factor if the lens is to be tested.

I believe that a Siemens star chart allows the quantification of optimal limiting resolution best in the case of refocusing. While (approximately) rotating the optical axis perpendicular to the surface of the test target, the (more or less) slightly non-plane-parallel orientation of subject plane and sensor plane will introduce some asymmetry in orientation of the limiting resolution, it is still the highest limiting resolution at the four corners that should match (at different angles). The benefit of using the Siemens star chart is that the optimal corner differences can be quantified (and thus qualified as significant or not).

I've personally experienced (and received feedback from others about) multiple cases of subsequently tested lenses with different/quantified corner resolutions (by using refocused sinusoidally modulated Siemens Star charts), before settling on a specific copy. Some of those tests showed superior resolution of a single corner, but different and lower resolution of all other corners  And preferred/common focus distance should not play a role in decentering issues, a decentered lens usually remains decentered at all subject distances.

Other tests may allow to demonstrate/quantify other aberrations, but if a lens is significantly decentered, that's going to complicate all other tests for detection of different aberrations. That's why it's the first thing I'd like to eliminate from the checklist, when purchasing a new lens, or checking a compromised lens.



Thanks, Bart. It turns out that most of the lenses that people are calling "decentered" are actually not, if passing the OOF PSF test is any indication.

I think that often the problem is one or more tilted elements, which can cause field tilt that will fail my version of the Siemens Star test, and other effects that will fail both our versions, if they are properly performed.

But the key phrase in the above is "properly performed". I don't think that Joe Public can reliably focus on each corner. In fact, I can't do that consistently myself, and I have to make many exposures, focusing in between, to get the reliability that I get with my one-focus test.

By the way, I am experimenting with sinusoidal (I actually coded a raised sine wave -- is that what you want?). With a camera with an AA filter it doesn't seem to make much difference:

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/leica-1803-4-apo-telyt-r-on-sony-a9-field-tilt-curvature-astigmatism/

I'll be testing with no-AA cameras, in particular the small micro-lens GFX.

Jim

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Hasselblad X1D 30mm lens unsharp?
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2017, 02:48:45 pm »

Thanks, Bart. It turns out that most of the lenses that people are calling "decentered" are actually not, if passing the OOF PSF test is any indication.

Yes, that could be the case.

Quote
I think that often the problem is one or more tilted elements, which can cause field tilt that will fail my version of the Siemens Star test, and other effects that will fail both our versions, if they are properly performed.

The Siemens star test is decent at showing asymmetry where symmetry is expected, i.e. in the center of the image with presumed parallel object- and image-planes. An elliptical center star blur can point to tilt issues (maybe even of the sensor itself). Corners show, almost by definition, asymmetrical blurs if astigmatism or coma effects are present, but the blur is reasonably disk shaped on well-corrected lenses, although of lower resolution than the center. But all corners should have similar resolution.

One of the better qualities of these star targets is that focus distance is not critical for the quantification of the limiting resolution, e.g. expressed as % of Nyquist (or pixels or microns if a specific sensor's pitch is used), because that will always produce the same center blur diameter when the shooting distance is not too close. All that changes with distance is the image magnification, but not the resolved limit diameter. Calibration of magnification factor (from focal length and focus distance) is hard, but no longer needed with a star.

Quote
But the key phrase in the above is "properly performed". I don't think that Joe Public can reliably focus on each corner. In fact, I can't do that consistently myself, and I have to make many exposures, focusing in between, to get the reliability that I get with my one-focus test.

Yes, it's harder than many think it is. I've been thinking about adding a moiré producing feature as background to the 'star' instead of the medium grey, similar to what I did for my AF micro adjustment target, but the star itself already does make it easier because (in magnified Live-View), one needs to reduce the diameter of the center blur. That's already quite sensitive, and the harder part is often that the focus ring doesn't allow precise enough manual tweaking (most AF lenses have a very short throw). The moiré feature could be a useful tool for achieving plane-parallel orientation.

Quote
By the way, I am experimenting with sinusoidal (I actually coded a raised sine wave -- is that what you want?). With a camera with an AA filter it doesn't seem to make much difference:

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/leica-1803-4-apo-telyt-r-on-sony-a9-field-tilt-curvature-astigmatism/

I'll be testing with no-AA cameras, in particular the small micro-lens GFX.

Yes, that's the kind of sinusoidal modulation I use myself. I use a different gamma than in your target so it can be looked at in gamma pre-compensated images, your's are best viewed at linear gamma, although it's not critical if not numerically evaluated for MTF.

The sharper the lens, the more optimal an aperture is chosen for maximum resolution (often around f/4-f/5.6), the smaller the fill-factor,  and the larger the photosite pitch, the more you'll avoid excessive aliasing from compromising the analysis if the target produces a well-behaved input signal. It's also more gentle on the demosaicing because it reduces the false color artifacts, thus making e.g. Chromatic Aberration easier to spot.

Your targets use a 60-cycle or 60-sector pairs star, and a 20-cycle or 20-sector pairs stars.
That creates the Nyquist limit blur diameter at an approx. 38.2 pixel, and 12.7 pixel diameter at 100% zoom (2 x cycles / Pi diameter , used as quick estimate).

Cheers,
Bart
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Hasselblad X1D 30mm lens unsharp?
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2017, 11:29:02 pm »



I'll be testing with no-AA cameras, in particular the small micro-lens GFX.


Today I ran a test with the GFX, the 110/2, using binary and raised-sinusoid stars of 40, 60, and 80 spokes.

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/fuji-1102-on-gfx-off-axis-performance/

I am not convinced of the benefits of the sinusoidal stars if we're going to be judging the images visually, although they would probably help with quantitative machine-controlled evaluation.

Jim

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Hasselblad X1D 30mm lens unsharp?
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2017, 10:18:26 am »

Today I ran a test with the GFX, the 110/2, using binary and raised-sinusoid stars of 40, 60, and 80 spokes.

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/fuji-1102-on-gfx-off-axis-performance/

I am not convinced of the benefits of the sinusoidal stars if we're going to be judging the images visually, although they would probably help with quantitative machine-controlled evaluation.

Hi Jim,

Interesting results. Looks like you have quite a decent copy of that lens as far as symmetry is concerned, not perfect but then nothing is.

It looks like the crops were zoomed in, to something approaching 250-300%, so I cannot quantify the absolute system's limiting resolution. When you calculate the Nyquist frequency limit (approx. 51 pixels for the 80-spokes star), you can see how close to Nyquist the resolution gets for real subject detail, and how good the lens is in absolute terms. The choice of Raw converter also plays a role in that chain. You might want to test the center crop with e.g. RawTherapee with the Amaze demosaicing algorithm to see how much of an influence the demosaicing can make.

What the tests also show is how complex the resolution changes are across the image plane. That then also hints at the difficulty of using a single (Capture) sharpening setting for the entire image. Only spatially variant sharpening can get the technically best out of an image (although that may not be necessary from a creative point of view). And as you said, not all subject matter is as critical as these test targets (thank goodness).

Cheers,
Bart
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Hasselblad X1D 30mm lens unsharp?
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2017, 10:32:34 am »

Hi Jim,

Interesting results. Looks like you have quite a decent copy of that lens as far as symmetry is concerned, not perfect but then nothing is.

It looks like the crops were zoomed in, to something approaching 250-300%, so I cannot quantify the absolute system's limiting resolution. When you calculate the Nyquist frequency limit (approx. 51 pixels for the 80-spokes star), you can see how close to Nyquist the resolution gets for real subject detail, and how good the lens is in absolute terms. The choice of Raw converter also plays a role in that chain. You might want to test the center crop with e.g. RawTherapee with the Amaze demosaicing algorithm to see how much of an influence the demosaicing can make.

What the tests also show is how complex the resolution changes are across the image plane. That then also hints at the difficulty of using a single (Capture) sharpening setting for the entire image. Only spatially variant sharpening can get the technically best out of an image (although that may not be necessary from a creative point of view). And as you said, not all subject matter is as critical as these test targets (thank goodness).

Thanks, Bart. For the purposes of lens screening, the absolute resolution is not that important, but I like to see aliasing on-axis as an indication of correct focus. When you get "pillows" (as Jack Hogan calls them), then you know for sure you're focused to the level the sensor can resolve, but not all lenses can produce the pillows that the 110/2 does.

Brandon Dube has sent me some simulated Siemens Stars for two common lens aberrations for a monochromatic sensor. Eventually, I'd like to create simulations for a Bayer CFA sensor, to show people (and me!) what those aberrations look like.

My worry now is that the test is so sensitive that it will show evidence of lens issues that will have no effect whatsoever on normal photography, and may result in good lenses being returned.  From that point of view, the raised-sinusoid star is a better target, I think. I need to work on screening criteria.

Jim
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