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Author Topic: Shame on Google  (Read 21070 times)

Rand47

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #80 on: August 18, 2017, 08:25:30 pm »


Now that's a leap of definitions!

If anything, they were the most stupid assholes ever. It was just a few too many rounds of passing the buck, and when the music stopped... it was inevitable it would result in pear-shapes. I know one Italian mother who lost her son in NY because of that shit. Here we should be talking about stupid and greedy, and give a thought to the guys still lecturing in US universities, guys who were advising both government and money-men.

If you can find it, have a deep look at the video "Inside Job" which apart fom explaining a bit about the meltdown, interviewing some of the cast of characters, has some lovely movie images of Iceland.

Evil is another thing altogether - IMO.

Rob

Rob,

Right on.  I don't disagree with you "fully."  But I don't think evil is "another thing altogether."  2008, et sec, was also a crystal clear representation of what M. Scott Peck describes in his book, "People of the Lie."  The upshot being that distributed responsibility is the soil where evil can grow, and at the same time the ruse used by "people of the lie" to cover their tracks.

Rand
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Rob C

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #81 on: August 19, 2017, 04:07:01 am »

Rob,

Right on.  I don't disagree with you "fully."  But I don't think evil is "another thing altogether."  2008, et sec, was also a crystal clear representation of what M. Scott Peck describes in his book, "People of the Lie."  The upshot being that distributed responsibility is the soil where evil can grow, and at the same time the ruse used by "people of the lie" to cover their tracks.

Rand


Hi,

On one level that's perhaps valid; no, it is valid, but on the other hand, absolute power corrupts absolutely... maybe the bottom line is that all power corrupts as do positions where such power might be held. Our human condition: fallibility.

Rob

Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #82 on: August 19, 2017, 09:48:33 pm »

I picked this quote from the ten page pdf that is the full document the person was fired over. https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf

Quote
Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we
don't have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership

How does one get factual evidence to prove that quoted statement when the person is basing this all on observing "traits" in the very same Google echo chamber he's contributing to? This person has no authority and should just keep to speaking about what he knows are facts. Observations are not facts.

Programmers should stick to programming, something they are good at. Because they are lousy at empathizing and relating with the human condition.
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Rob C

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #83 on: August 20, 2017, 11:34:07 am »

I'm not really sure why there is a sense of threat seen within the concept of male/female differences beyond the plumbing.

I distinctly remember grandmothers, aunts, a mother of my own, a wife and daughter of my own and two adult granddaughters of my own. I can't remember, clearly or vaguely, that their mindsets were ever to be confused with the male. They all appeared/appear to me to be distinctly female both in their preferences, in their attitudes to other people and to home life.

That's not to imply they are incapable of looking beyond the kitchen sink. The daughter has a degree and both her daughters have them in spades. My wife was brilliant in maths and science and she coached me through maths exams when I was wrongly employed in engineering. In due course she bore me two children and gave up her laboratory life to look after them and run the family home. She provided the backup without which I could never have run my little photography business. When she felt the children old enough, she went back to studying and took another lab job, just to see if she could still hack it. She could. But the rest of the other parts of life took a hit. A big one. Seeing that she had proven herself to be no more a vegetable post-partum than she had ever been, she retired from that and reverted to what worked to the broader good. Did she suffer? If being able to pick up her friends, go play tennis or go for a swim, come back home in time to have lunch ready for two hungry kids and sometimes me, too, then yes, she suffered greatly. If the value of a safe, secure, happy and spotless home means nothing, then she wasted her time when she could have been gazing through a microscope or mixing chemicals.

Having the intellectual capability of doing something is not, I think, limited by gender reality - pure muscle-power aside - but at the same time, I think females have an added quality that males often lack: they seem to me to have a far more educated grasp of priorities. In other words, the ones I have known are not as likely to get strung out on winning pissing contests as are males. So much less so, in fact, that this male preoccupation appears to have drive most of them right off the face of the LuLa map. Can anyone blame them? Or are we to assume they are not able to maintain an interest in photography? I think the truth may well be that they have realised that photography is but a subtext to life online, with the brandishing of equipment and claims to greater bragging rights the principal raison d'être, a spiritual tragedy in motion they are best advised to avoid.

And if you want to stay in the photographic world, then even there the differences are quite marked when you know who some of the practitioners are and how they have developed their styles through the years. No, that isn't to say one can instantly tell the dfference between a male and female-produced photograph at all, but seen en masse, there is a difference in emphasis (I'm chatting about fashion photographers here) that sort of makes sense.

In conclusion, I see no shame in both accepting that women are not men (and mainly vice versa) nor in believing that it's natural for them to be better at some things than at others. I believe exactly the same about men: we do some things well, yet with others we should just walk away and leave it to those who can do it far better than can we.

How terrible a unisex world would have been.

Rob
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 03:42:10 am by Rob C »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #84 on: August 20, 2017, 03:38:46 pm »

Another ridiculous quote from the pdf...
Quote
Of course, I may be biased and only see evidence that supports my viewpoint. In terms of political biases, I consider myself a classical liberal and strongly value individualism and reason. I'd be very happy to discuss any of the document further and provide more citations.

Geez! Me suspects he's covering his a$$ in case anyone on both sides of the political spectrum calls him out on his bullshit.

Rob, very interesting and insightful comment. Intelligence in any gender is a welcome relief especially for enriching close, personal relationships.
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Rand47

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #85 on: August 20, 2017, 11:04:19 pm »

Another ridiculous quote from the pdf...
Geez! Me suspects he's covering his a$$ in case anyone on both sides of the political spectrum calls him out on his bullshit.
. . .

Nope, I don't think so... he's just incredibly naive.  The whole tone of his paper demonstrates this.  It isn't overtly inflammatory, it is almost sad in its optimistic "frame," thinking that the powers that be at Google will actually want to talk about it.  Sad.

Rand
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2017, 02:36:11 am »

Nope, I don't think so... he's just incredibly naive.  The whole tone of his paper demonstrates this.  It isn't overtly inflammatory, it is almost sad in its optimistic "frame," thinking that the powers that be at Google will actually want to talk about it.  Sad.

Rand

Naively optimistic...mmh. Is that a fact?

I wouldn't expect such a level of ignorance about the facts from a software engineer who's very education and livelihood depends on facts and a thinking mind, so you'll have to excuse me if I don't share your interpretation.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #87 on: August 21, 2017, 07:41:35 am »

... I wouldn't expect such a level of ignorance about the facts...

Care to elaborate? What are the facts that they guy is ignorant about?

Rand47

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2017, 09:50:40 am »

Care to elaborate? What are the facts that they guy is ignorant about?

This is an excellent question.

Rand
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scyth

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #89 on: August 21, 2017, 10:07:02 am »

I wouldn't expect such a level of ignorance about the facts from a software engineer

I suggest to look no further than @ photographers first  ;D ...
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SrMi

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #90 on: August 21, 2017, 02:24:05 pm »

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #91 on: August 21, 2017, 02:47:53 pm »

https://www.wired.com/story/the-pernicious-science-of-james-damores-google-memo/

Thanks for the link. But this is a discussion among us, members of this forum, and it should not require reading a dozen of pages of someone else's opinions in order to discuss thing amount ourselves. So, take one or two issues and state them in your own words (not referring specifically to SrMi) and let's discuss that.

By the way, I started reading the article and already on the first couple of pages I am disagreeing with the logic of the article writer and his conclusions. 

Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2017, 12:19:03 am »

Care to elaborate? What are the facts that they guy is ignorant about?

He's ignorant about including any facts in his document. Being naively optimistic about Google discussing what amounts to his "biases" and observations about gender differences borders on stupidity.

That's about all I expect for you to understand, Slobodan, which I don't think needs anymore elaboration. If you need facts, you go look them up.
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scyth

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2017, 12:19:47 pm »

https://www.wired.com/story/the-pernicious-science-of-james-damores-google-memo/

the authors there write "Is coding a thing- or people-oriented job? " and then they proceed to make a point about... PM work "What about when you do it in a corporation with 72,000 people? When you’re managing a team of engineers? When you’re trying to marshal support for your proposed expenditure of person-hours versus someone else’s?" - that alone shows that authors lack basic understanding that a PM (even a technical PM who still does code work) is a different role than a software developer... not every developer can be a PM (or even a team lead) exactly because coding is not a people-oriented job, hence the you can see more female PMs than female coders... speaks volumes about the authors and hence about the article ;D
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scyth

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2017, 12:24:25 pm »

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scyth

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2017, 12:26:31 pm »

If you need facts, you go look them up.

may he that will help you quote something instead of empty moralizing

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-009-9538-y
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2017, 02:56:55 pm »

may he that will help you quote something instead of empty moralizing

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-009-9538-y

You're defining what I just said about looking up facts about an issue as empty moralizing says more about your ignorance. See, I already know there are no facts because differentiating human traits by gender will not produce quantifiable and practical data due to too many variables involved some of which are just the way humans think, there upbringing and living conditions, where a person is from, allergies, health both physical and mental, etc, etc.

Since there are no facts to prove gender biases and traits there's nothing but the deep gaping hole that makes folks who need to control out of fear of losing their job or raise in pay make up shit through observation or just looking at stuff. This is why we have racists, bigots and other fear based ignorance. We're animals in denial. This video might help you realize this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca4gA3mdW5Y
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2017, 04:21:40 pm »

...    See, I already know there are no facts...

Gee, that's a scientific proof for sure  ;)

Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Anyone who has not been in coma or on a deserted island for most of his life understands perfectly well on a visceral level there are gender differences in traits. That it might be difficult to quantify is more of a problem of the measuring methods in social sciences, not a proof that the differences do not exist.

Rob C

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2017, 05:02:04 pm »

Gee, that's a scientific proof for sure  ;)

Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Anyone who has not been in coma or on a deserted island for most of his life understands perfectly well on a visceral level there are gender differences in traits. That it might be difficult to quantify is more of a problem of the measuring methods in social sciences, not a proof that the differences do not exist.

And the desert island idyll must have been spent alone. Better the coma, then: you might get a pretty nurse, and perhaps deep down, in that visceral state (alongside Russ' seer) you'd know.

This site is getting so very educational!

France 24 tv did an interesting 'debate' this evening (can one actually do a debate? Probably not - so held may be more apt) on Afghanistan and its chaos, and some interesting perspectives were brought out. One, the ultimate killer weapon, I suppose, is that the Tally Boys are patient. You can't defeat that without a country-wide genocide reminiscent of the one that did for the Cathars; the good people doing the slaying explained it very well: kill 'em all, because it won't do the innocents any harm - God will know his own. So that was all right. Isn't that just a wonderful, honest way of doing extinction? I think perhaps one can do extinction? Turn it into a verb? Or does that confuse it with extinguish? Where is Oxford when you need him?

scyth

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Re: Shame on Google
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2017, 09:25:42 pm »

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