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Author Topic: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark  (Read 1578 times)

MBehrens

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LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« on: August 06, 2017, 01:08:28 AM »

I am seeing that LR CC 2015.12 is rendering Fuji X-T2 RAF raw files much too darkly. Attached is an example, JPG (Provia Std from camera), RAF (Only Provia Camera Calibration applied), and DNG is an Iridient X-Transformer rendering.

I've checked and double checked that all settings are reset and nothing is being applied on import. And I have confirmed that this was not occurring on images imported prior to 2015.12.

Are any other Fuji users having this issue?

 - Morey
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rdonson

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2017, 07:48:09 AM »

I've not experienced that with my X-T1 or X-T2 files.
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Dave Rosser

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2017, 12:06:49 PM »

I wonder if they have changed the hidden baseline exposure correction?
See hidden exposure correction
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Chris Kern

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2017, 12:49:02 PM »

I just ran a quick test under indirect even lighting (MacOS 10.12.6, LR 2015.12) and I'm not experiencing this problem either.  The image looks fine and the histogram shows proper exposure with both the Adobe Standard and Provia profiles.

MBehrens

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2017, 02:13:48 PM »

I have resolved this. I went into Preferences > Presets > clicked [Reset all default Develop settings]
At least I'm pretty sure this is what resolved it, I'm going back through things I did last night futzing around in LR.
Images are now coming in with identical, to my eye, exposures.

I'm not absolving Adobe of responsibility here. I have NEVER set defaults for this camera, or any of my cameras to my memory. I had to google how to set the defaults. I'm not a fan of hidden settings like this. Don't defaults still show up as adjustments on the sliders? I was not seeing any exposure adjustments.

Thanks for the replies, Dave's tip got me thinking ISO level, I was seeing different degrees of exposure change for different ISO. I ran outside and shot a set of 200 - 3200 ISO shots and they all came in perfect. Not being able to reproduce I reviewed what I had done.
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john beardsworth

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2017, 04:44:05 PM »

Are those shots with a DR setting of 200 or 400? I think these underexpose in order to get the JPEG looking "right".
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Rand47

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2017, 04:50:21 PM »

Are those shots with a DR setting of 200 or 400? I think these underexpose in order to get the JPEG looking "right".

+1  A known phenomenon.  Shooting raw, set DR to 100%, not 200, 400 or auto.

Rand
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MBehrens

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2017, 08:09:21 PM »

DR is set to Auto, the default AFAIK. I've never set it to anything specifically. I capture a JPG for curiosity, but always use the raw file. Looking back over my catalog I see some very contrasty situations and none show this exposure difference until 2015.12 update. DR doesn't explain the difference between the RAF and the DNG processed in IXT. I've been processing through IXT for some time now and have never seen an EV shift before. See image below for 2015.10 processing results.
DR is good information and I appreciate the idea. But I don't have any history of this being an issue. I have set my camera to 100 so that I can maintain consistency.
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Denis de Gannes

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2017, 11:07:34 PM »

DR is set to Auto, the default AFAIK. I've never set it to anything specifically. I capture a JPG for curiosity, but always use the raw file. Looking back over my catalog I see some very contrasty situations and none show this exposure difference until 2015.12 update. DR doesn't explain the difference between the RAF and the DNG processed in IXT. I've been processing through IXT for some time now and have never seen an EV shift before. See image below for 2015.10 processing results.
DR is good information and I appreciate the idea. But I don't have any history of this being an issue. I have set my camera to 100 so that I can maintain consistency.
.
The point is Adobe / Lightroom / Adobe Camera Raw have an alternative processing engine from your camera manufacture. They will provide with with an alternative rendition of the raw data from your camera manufacture and their software. Its just a different rendition of the raw data from your camera model.
Adobe creates a unique rendition of the raw data file produced by your camera. What is correct?????"? there is no correct rendition just separate alternatives, enjoy manage  and use the opportunity to create your rendition of the raw data.
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MBehrens

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2017, 12:39:28 AM »

Denis and everyone else,
I understand raw processing and embrace it fully. And I understand that different raw processors will render different results due to their particular take on developing the data.

What I am saying is that there was a change in the results of the LR raw processing since I upgraded to 2015.12. The JPGs from the camera appeared to be consistent and the results of my other raw processor (IXT) were consistent - with past results and with the camera JPG. This left no other source of the anomaly except for LR.

I went out on a shoot this evening and the import is exactly as expected. The LR rendering is back to normal. See below.

I am very confident that the source of the issue was settings leaked into the LR Camera Default Develop Setting. Is Adobe to blame or did I fat finger the setting, I don't know. It would be very coincidental that I fat finger the setting exactly on the date I upgraded... I've been using LR since initial beta and never had a problem with inadvertently doing this ever before. My money is on Adobe.

Thanks everyone for your responses, tips, and suggestions. Very much appreciated!

Morey
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john beardsworth

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2017, 02:40:22 AM »

DR is set to Auto, the default AFAIK. I've never set it to anything specifically. I capture a JPG for curiosity, but always use the raw file. Looking back over my catalog I see some very contrasty situations and none show this exposure difference until 2015.12 update. DR doesn't explain the difference between the RAF and the DNG processed in IXT. I've been processing through IXT for some time now and have never seen an EV shift before. See image below for 2015.10 processing results.
DR is good information and I appreciate the idea. But I don't have any history of this being an issue. I have set my camera to 100 so that I can maintain consistency.

If it's set to Auto, then the camera may have chosen DR 200 or 400 for those shots. If you want to see the DR value, you could copy the files back to a flash card and look at them in the camera. Or you can process the files with my X-LR plugin and the keywording options enabled (in trial mode you can process 5 images). This will create non-exporting keywords for all the Fuji  EXIF including the DR settings.

For a while I set my XT2 to DR 100 but I now prefer Auto - it means I can review the JPEGs or the embedded JPEGs in something like PhotoMechanic.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 02:29:56 PM by john beardsworth »
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MBehrens

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2017, 07:36:38 PM »

Okay, well I was wrong. It is the DR that the camera is applying. Went back on Auto and pictures from the weekend are some under exposed (DR200)  and others are okay (DR100). Why is the DR applied in camera affecting the raw file? Is this new to LR 2015.12? I have never seen this before. Is it a Fuji firmware change?
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Rand47

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2017, 08:51:06 PM »

Okay, well I was wrong. It is the DR that the camera is applying. Went back on Auto and pictures from the weekend are some under exposed (DR200)  and others are okay (DR100). Why is the DR applied in camera affecting the raw file? Is this new to LR 2015.12? I have never seen this before. Is it a Fuji firmware change?

I've owned Fuji and used LR since the release of the X-T1 (now using X-T2 and X-Pro2).  It has always been this way if you put DR on Auto (sometimes a problem depending on what it does). 200, or 400.  As I mentioned above, set the DR to 100 and forget about it.

The only time to use 200 or 400 when shooting raw (and you'll think I'm nuts - but I learned this at a workshop with Rico P.) is when in high contrast daylight with deep shadows.  ISO 800, DR 400 and you'll end up with about one stop better highlight ceiling.  Test it yourself.  Exactly why it impacts the raw file, I have no idea, but it does.  We shot a model in dead noon sun, with significant shadows under her eyes... shot it "both ways" i.e. DR 100, base ISO, and DR 400 ISO 800.  I was totally skeptical, seemed like a snake oil kind of thing to me.  SURPRISE!  Visibly more headroom in the DR 400, ISO 800 file.

Rand
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rdonson

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2017, 09:40:52 PM »

Is it possible that Lr is reading the DR setting in the RAW file?  Do other RAW converters behave the same?
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Ron

Denis de Gannes

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2017, 10:30:00 PM »

Is it possible that Lr is reading the DR setting in the RAW file?  Do other RAW converters behave the same?

I do not think so, thats why LR renders the file "Dark" because it is under exposed. When the Fuji res processing application renders the raw data it makes the necessary adjustments to present a properly exposed view.
Lightroom has its own priory processing engine and profiling for Fuji raw files. It is an alternative process and will not read the "special" settings you choose in the camera.
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john beardsworth

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2017, 02:17:13 AM »

Is it possible that Lr is reading the DR setting in the RAW file?  Do other RAW converters behave the same?

No, they also ignore it, largely because it is only stored as Fuji-specific EXIF metadata. Instead LR reads the raw image data, which looks underexposed at DR200 or 400. My X-LR plugin allows you to automatically correct for this.

Fuji document DR in the manual (PDFs here). At least for the X-T2, in DR Auto mode DR200 only kicks in at ISO200, DR400 at ISO800.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 12:59:33 PM by john beardsworth »
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rdonson

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2017, 12:50:03 PM »

Thanks, John!
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MBehrens

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2017, 08:12:16 PM »

I've read the manual on this. X-T2 DR.
It doesn't say anything about the raw file, as expected, this is a JPG feature. It just explains the feature and the DR level that will be applied at what ISO. It does come with the warning that "mottling" may appear in images with DR applied. I figured that they are pulling down the highlights and boosting the shadows in camera, the same way we do in LR.

John, what does "..looks underexposed at DR200 and 400" mean? "Looks underexposed" is an odd statement, isn't raw data, just data.

To the question of other raw converters, Iridient (IXT) does not display the same underexposure that LR shows. The third image in all of my examples is IXT and it is properly exposed, or very very similar to the OOC JPG.

Since I use raw exclusively, I'm back on the DR100 setting just to maintain some sanity. I using the IXT raw more and more all of the time, so this may be more academic that anything. But, I'm really curious to understand what is going on here. If this has been going on all along, I'm really surprised this is bugging me so much now and never before, I was looking at my images before, I really was. And I can go back in my library and I just don't see the difference before LR 2015.12.
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john beardsworth

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2017, 08:24:01 AM »

John, what does "..looks underexposed at DR200 and 400" mean? "Looks underexposed" is an odd statement, isn't raw data, just data.

I just mean what you are seeing - dark, darker than one wants. What I think DR200/400 do is deliberately underexpose the shot, ie apply negative exposure bias to the raw file, and secondly apply in-camera processing to increase overall brightness while pulling back the highlights and lifting the shadows.

I'm still undecided about whether I like Auto or not. On the whole, I like it and I like seeing its results in the EVF. When it's disabled, I would probably underexpose a bit in similar situations, so I may as well leave it enabled. But then the raw files look too dark in LR, and that's why I added controls to compensate for this in the plugin.

John
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MBehrens

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Re: LR CC 2015.12 - Fuji RAF Too Dark
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2017, 12:08:01 PM »

What I think DR200/400 do is deliberately underexpose the shot, ie apply negative exposure bias to the raw file, and secondly apply in-camera processing to increase overall brightness while pulling back the highlights and lifting the shadows.
This is my assumption too. Under expose the image and then boost the shadows to bring the exposure back up. The shadow detail/depth is the strength of the Fuji raw file so they are taking advantage of it. Looking at the images on the camera LCD, the raw preview does not show this underexposure. Seems LR is ignoring the DR and so we get the straight underexposed raw image.

I spoke with Brian at Iridient and he is applying adjustments for DR which explains why those files match the jpg so closely.

Yeah, I'm sticking with DR100. I'd rather have a properly exposed raw file than an adjusted DR JPG.

I still think something changed in LR in 2015.12, I've always used Auto DR and this never bugged me before... But I've been wrong in the past.. HA!

Thanks!
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