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Author Topic: Nikon 1 MILC system discontinued  (Read 1738 times)

myotis

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Re: Nikon 1 MILC system discontinued
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2017, 04:27:19 PM »

Not according to Nikon's comment to DPReview

Nikon has responded to our request for comment, saying "Nikon continues to produce and sell the Nikon 1 line. We cannot comment on future product or speculation."

Cheers,

Graham
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David S

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Re: Nikon 1 MILC system discontinued
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2017, 11:03:04 AM »

Not according to Nikon's comment to DPReview

Nikon has responded to our request for comment, saying "Nikon continues to produce and sell the Nikon 1 line. We cannot comment on future product or speculation."

Cheers,

Graham

Except they have "pre-announced" the 850.

Dave S
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hogloff

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Re: Nikon 1 MILC system discontinued
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2017, 01:47:54 PM »

Not according to Nikon's comment to DPReview

Nikon has responded to our request for comment, saying "Nikon continues to produce and sell the Nikon 1 line. We cannot comment on future product or speculation."

Cheers,

Graham

That just means they'll continue to sell the N1 until stock runs out.
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myotis

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Re: Nikon 1 MILC system discontinued
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2017, 02:09:59 PM »

That just means they'll continue to sell the N1 until stock runs out.

We can only wait and see, but that wouldn't match Nikons consistent position of having a long term commitment to the 1 system. But who knows, what they will do.

Cheers,

Graham
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myotis

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Re: Nikon 1 MILC system discontinued
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2017, 02:15:25 PM »

Except they have "pre-announced" the 850.

Dave S

I don't see how this is the same. The D850 is obviously close to release. who knows what is happening with the Nikon 1. Judging by Nikons comments about it, it could still go in any direction, and I doubt it is much of a priority for them at the moment.

Cheers,

Graham
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David S

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Re: Nikon 1 MILC system discontinued
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2017, 05:29:52 PM »

I don't see how this is the same. The D850 is obviously close to release. who knows what is happening with the Nikon 1. Judging by Nikons comments about it, it could still go in any direction, and I doubt it is much of a priority for them at the moment.

Cheers,

Graham

And that is the issue - problem. It is not a priority.

Dave S
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon 1 MILC system discontinued
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2017, 10:02:45 PM »

If I were Nikon I would quickly kill the 1 series and refocus resources on projects with better potential to take the company forward and help their users achieve better photographic results.

Don't get me wrong, the 1 series cameras had impressive abilities (starting with their AF and some lenses such as the 32mm f1.2 were spectacular), but Nikon was way too schizophrenic about the whole line to come up with real winners. The J1 was a very nice design, but for the market it was targeting interchangeable lenses was not needed, they should have released it as a RX100 MkIV 4 years ahead of its time and would have killed the high end compact market easily.

Once again, the problem of Nikon wasn't technology, it was product planning.

Cheers,
Bernard
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myotis

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Re: Nikon 1 MILC system discontinued
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2017, 03:45:26 AM »

And that is the issue - problem. It is not a priority.

Dave S

Indeed !
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myotis

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Re: Nikon 1 MILC system discontinued
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2017, 04:17:37 AM »

If I were Nikon I would quickly kill the 1 series and refocus resources on projects with better potential to take the company forward and help their users achieve better photographic results.

Don't get me wrong, the 1 series cameras had impressive abilities (starting with their AF and some lenses such as the 32mm f1.2 were spectacular), but Nikon was way too schizophrenic about the whole line to come up with real winners. The J1 was a very nice design, but for the market it was targeting interchangeable lenses was not needed, they should have released it as a RX100 MkIV 4 years ahead of its time and would have killed the high end compact market easily.

Once again, the problem of Nikon wasn't technology, it was product planning.

Cheers,
Bernard

I agree with all of this except for the killing off bit. But then I'm not a Nikon marketing person, and I am biased because I am both very irritated and very fond of my Nikon 1s.

With an up to date sensor, the Nikon 1 should be capable of very good quality in terms of every day use. M43 kit seems to be getting bigger as it improves and competes more directly with APS. So, having a high quality 1" mirrorless as part of a FF, APS, 1" sensor line up seems to make sense to me.

Although you can make small M43 kit, I am assuming that the smaller sensor gives that bit more flexibility in terms of size vs quality decisions, which should give the 1" sensor an advantage.  I don't have any high quality lenses for either system but of the lenses I do have, my Nikon 1 lenses are generally better than my panasonic lenses, but I'm not putting that forward as a generalisation on M43 lenses.

An updated Nikon 1 would then be available for the smart phone user wanting something of higher quality and more versatility than their phone, but still small, and the Sony RX10 type user who doesn't want to move up a size to APS but wants a fast prime lens, a proper macro or access to Nikon long focus lenses could also look to the Nikon1.

I also still think that the original idea, which Nikon never really followed through, of providing a DSLR experience for when your DSLR was too big or heavy, plus features not on your DSLR (e.g 60fps, good quality video) etc still has potential. No idea of the numbers but people using a Nikon 1 alongside FF and APS Nikon DSLRs seems to be a fairly common combination, among N1 users.

A new sensor, video centric, but still fully capable for stills camera, taking the same batteries as Nikon DSLRs, and a lens adaptor that allowed you to use all the autofocus points, plus some new lenses, could revitalise the Nikon 1 system and attract users up from smartphones and bridge cameras and down from M43. As well as providing a useful component in the Nikon users toolbox. My V2 with the 70-300mm offers something unique in the camera world, given its reach, size and weight.

But I also think its more important that they focus their efforts on FF/APS mirrorless at the moment.

And then again, what do I know about it, I just want a V4 to replace my V2, and give me a better sensor.  But then again, I probably want, but don't need, a D850 more!

Cheers,
Graham

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BJL

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Re: Nikon 1 MILC system discontinued
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2017, 09:54:40 AM »

@myotis, though I agree with many of the arguments in favor of smaller sensor format MILCs (my kit is MFT), and Nikon did many things well with its 1" system, I still think that its market performance (behind MFT, Sony E and even Canon EOS-M) shows rhat a new approach is needed.

Maybe one point is that beow about 4/3" or "DX" format, sensor costs do not go down much relative to total camera costs, and the bodies cannot get smaller, because things like the rear screen and controls set a lower limit. So the main advantage is smaller lenses, and only if they roughly match the minimum f-stop of lsrger formats, so giving less good low light/hih shutter speed performance. That can be fine for many, as it still greatly out-peforms film of phone-cameras, but it puts an upside limit.

Also, the ability to fill gaps in a new mirrorless lens system by adapting existing SLR lenses helps (indicated by the greater success of the EOS-M) so matching either DX or FX format makes sense.
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myotis

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Re: Nikon 1 MILC system discontinued
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2017, 11:02:48 AM »

@myotis, though I agree with many of the arguments in favor of smaller sensor format MILCs (my kit is MFT), and Nikon did many things well with its 1" system, I still think that its market performance (behind MFT, Sony E and even Canon EOS-M) shows rhat a new approach is needed.

Maybe one point is that beow about 4/3" or "DX" format, sensor costs do not go down much relative to total camera costs, and the bodies cannot get smaller, because things like the rear screen and controls set a lower limit. So the main advantage is smaller lenses, and only if they roughly match the minimum f-stop of lsrger formats, so giving less good low light/hih shutter speed performance. That can be fine for many, as it still greatly out-peforms film of phone-cameras, but it puts an upside limit.

Also, the ability to fill gaps in a new mirrorless lens system by adapting existing SLR lenses helps (indicated by the greater success of the EOS-M) so matching either DX or FX format makes sense.

Various points here, I also think they need a new approach, but with how they develop the Nikon 1 system. I still believe the Nikon 1 has a future, as the smaller option to their DX and DF mirrorless cameras, when they appear. And although we won't necessarily see much difference in body size, I still think we will see substantial differences in "outfit" sizes, just as you do with M43. In fact, I'm not overly concerned about body size, as I find nearly every camera I own (except for my Nikon DSLRs) to be too small to comfortably use, and its always a great relief to pick up a DSLR instead of one of my mirrorless options, even though I wish they were lighter.

I'm not entirely sure that the Nikon 1 has, or ever will, directly compete against M43, or Sony E, or Canon EOS-M, (or indeed Fuji X) camera systems, as Nikon's  DX and DF DSLR systems are Nikons current competition against these cameras. Its the Nikon DX mirrorless cameras that will compete with these cameras.

I do agree with you however, about the pricing problem. It probably isn't that much cheaper, if its cheaper at all, to produce a high quality 1" sensor camera than a DX sensor camera. And you need to have a very good reason to choose a 1" sensor camera over a DX sensor camera if they are both selling at the same price.

I would in fact happily pay d7500 prices for a updated Nikon 1 camera (as would several people I know), but then my primary use is with the 70-300mm lens and there is nothing on the market that offers a realistic alternative. BUT I also already have the option of using Nikon full frame , FUJI APS, or indeed M43, so I am not looking at this being my main camera system.  I suspect, that even though Nikon have said how pleased they have been with the sales of the 70-300, I'm not sure enough customers would be willing to pay as much as I would for an updated Nikon 1 body.

So I agree that Nikon need a rethink, but not the rethink that you think they need :-)

Cheers,
Graham




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BJL

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Re: Nikon 1 MILC system discontinued (or not?)
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2017, 02:45:27 PM »

Graham,

     I agre with almost everything you say, in particular lack of desire for tiny bodies (I am eyeing the relatively chunky Olympus OMD-1 Mk II as a good fit with my longer telephoto lenses). One key issue to me is this:
. . . I still think we will see substantial differences in "outfit" sizes, just as you do with M43.
Yes, but only when the lenses are of only "moderate" brightness, like f/3.5-5.6 or at most f/3.5-4.5. As soon as a smaller format like 1" (or 4/3") tries to match the high shutter speed/low light handling and DOF control of larger formats by offering bright lenses like f/2.8 zooms or even f/2.8-4 zooms, a somewhat larger format can roughly match the speed (combined minimum usable f-stop and maximum usable ISO speed) and size with a lens of the longer focal length to get the same FOV and slightly higher minimum f-stop. Those longer, slower lens designs are a bit easier: working with higher minimum f-stops make it easier to correct aberrations, and often allows wider zoom ranges.

Not that this makes faster lenses useless in a smaller format (I crave f/2.8-3.5 or f/2.8-4 zooms for M43), it just means that the users should be satisfied with "small, slowish" lenses a good proportion of the time for the sake of a small, light kit, even if sometimes choosing to haul the "big glass" when more speed is desired. Nikon seems to agree: all zoom lenses for Nikon 1 are f/3.5-5.6 or slower and there are no fast telephoto primes. Indeed it might be better for the system to have a few faster "upgrade" options, instead of relying an adaptor-mountd DX and FX lenses. Maybe some faster "1" lenses are part of Nikon's promised next step in mirrorless!

Maybe that market niche for 1" format MILCs is big enough with the right improvements, but the sales results so far make me a bit pessimistic.
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myotis

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Re: Nikon 1 MILC system discontinued (or not?)
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2017, 03:53:54 PM »

Maybe some faster "1" lenses are part of Nikon's promised next step in mirrorless!

Maybe that market niche for 1" format MILCs is big enough with the right improvements, but the sales results so far make me a bit pessimistic.

Yes, I generally agree with you about the issue of aperture still dictating absolute lens size, and the other issues you raise around comparative apertures/format. But as you suggest, this same issue is still reflected with M43 if compared to APS, just slightly less so. At least with M43 you have good quality f2.8 zooms, which are much smaller than their f2.8 equivalents in APS or FF (ignoring D of F comparisons).

Of course  the N1 does have the  18.5mm f1.8 and the 32mm f1.2 primes available, plus an f2.8 10 mm, so full frame equivalent angles of view as 28, 50 and 85 lenses are reasonably well covered. But maybe small apertures is is just something you need to live with if you want a small camera system.

However, the Nikon FT1 adaptor, you mentioned  works extremely well, and its fairly common for people to use the N1with long fast Nikon Telephotos, and get the benefits of up to 60fps and 15/18mp resolution rather than cropping a DX/DF nikon sensor. Unfortunately, the Ft1 only gives central point focussing and this is one of the things Nikon 1 users hope will be fixed if the N1 continues.

But taking this all together, is why I think the N1 is always likely to be an expensive niche camera, as you can't get away from it still only being a 1" sensor.  Its never going to be the first choice for low light photography or where you need really shallow depth of field. In terms of "serious" photography, its always likely to be a  second system. But I have still been surprised at how good that little sensor can be, and the J5 is that bit better than my V2s, or the V3. 

I'm never sure what to make of sales figures, because whether they are good or bad for Nikon, must depend on the sales that Nikon had projected for the product. They have said on more than one occasion how pleased they have been with the sales of the J5, V3 and the 70-300mm lenses, and have consistently reinforced their long term commitment to the nikon 1 system. They have also publicly apologised for not being able to keep up with the demand for the V3 and 70-300, because they had underestimated the demand and needed to increase production.  So, publicly at least, Nikon don't seem to be as pessimistic about the future of the N1 as we all seem to be.

But who knows, it may well be too late for the Nikon 1 to recover, and as I think I said earlier, the priority for Nikon has got to be getting APS and FF mirrorless cameras to the market.

Cheers,

Graham


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