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Author Topic: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole  (Read 8356 times)

Doug Gray

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Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« on: July 30, 2017, 12:15:32 am »

I've been looking at how "printer manages color" works and what it's limitations are. My curiosity was triggered when reading the thread on ABW where some interesting links existed to posts advocating using the printer's device driver to manage color. At least on Apples. It's been regularly stated around the net that Apples will provide Adobe RGB level color managed printing using the printer driver and that it often yields superior results. But also stated was that Windows was limited to sRGB. So I thought I'd look at what actually gets printed using a variety of driver settings with the two printers I use, a Canon 9500II and an Epson 9800 running the current Photoshop CC an Windows 10.  While the printers are a bit long in the tooth I figured that older machines would be unlikely to work with Adobe RGB since newer ones presumably did not. The results are, to say the least, interesting.

To test this I chose a set of 20 patches from neutral to a saturated green. Specifically, Lab (50,0,0) to (50,-95,0) in steps of -5 along the a* axis. The associated Tiff, a Lab space file, was used to print reference prints using my normal process, "Photoshop manages color" and compared to prints using a variety of settings in the driver using "Printer manages color." This color patch set was chosen because it represents colors that are well outside sRGB and somewhat outside Adobe RGB. So it's an excellent vehicle to test actual gamut performance. Along that axis sRGB starts clipping at a=-36 and Adobe RGB at a=-67.  On glossy's with Photoshop managing color one can get up to about a=-83 which is beyond Adobe RGB.

It turns out that Windows does not limit "printer manages color" to sRGB. At least on these two printers and can, indeed, render Adobe RGB images without gamut clipping. But only if certain driver settings are made. Otherwise, yes, the images will be converted to sRGB and clipped.

And there's another oddity. On the 9500 in particular, using the default settings will convert incoming images to sRGB but it will remap the actual printed colors to significantly more saturated colors. Ones which are roughly half way between the sRGB and Adobe RGB gamut edges. It also significantly increases the luminance. As a result, just printing sRGB phone snaps on the Canon 9500 using "printer manages color" produces more colorful and brighter prints than those from a properly color managed workflow. And, BTW, this is without using any of the "color enhancement" options in the driver.

Specifically, on the 9800 selecting "host ICM (advanced)" and Adobe RGB in the driver dialog will properly print Adobe RGB images. And on the 9500 selecting ICM in the manual dialog will fully render Adobe RGB images.

I've very measurement oriented and all print tests have spectro measurements. I am rather surprised as I long believed Windows not capable of anything beyond sRGB when the printer driver has control. More to follow.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 12:35:21 am by Doug Gray »
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Schewe

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2017, 01:14:55 am »

It's been regularly stated around the net that Apples will provide Adobe RGB level color managed printing using the printer driver and that it often yields superior results.

I've seen it said that printer manages color can "sometimes" provide superior results in certain edge case situations often when dealing with highly saturated colors but I don't ever recall seeing any authoritative proof that is not the exception vs the rule. (and I include Ctein in that group).
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Farmer

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2017, 01:37:53 am »

Windows has long had this capacity.  The confusion stems from rendering colour on wide gamut monitors where OS X is still doing it better, but in the print pipeline, Windows has in many ways been and remains ahead of OS X (though for most cases it's an irrelevant distinction whereas for monitors the variance can be quite real).

Not surprisingly, printer manufacturers know a thing or two about the colour output of their printers.  As you discovered with the 9500, a lot of the default settings are designed to generate that is presumed to be aesthetically pleasing results for most happy snappers or office printing (and, indeed, similar results can be obtained from your 9800 with appropriate driver settings).

The more accurate, realistic colour renditions are entirely achievable through the driver up to Adobe RGB with most printers with a driver released in the last, oh, 10 years?  Somewhere around that.  The results can, in some edge cases as Schewe suggests, provide a better results than using ICC profiles - it really comes down to the profile.  The main issue with "printer manages" is for folks who want to use a third party media.  The driver settings that select media directly affect the colour output, of course, and you can only approximate or guess when using a third party and letting the printer doing the colour work, whereas with an ICC profile workflow you can profile a particular third party media based on a relevant driver setting and deal with the media white variance.

If you use both OEM and third party media types, it then becomes a matter of workflow consistency and most people only want one workflow, and not two (or at best two if you have an ABW or other B&W workflow).  Indeed, speaking of B&W, we discovered, well, about 10 years ago, that converting your B&W to Adobe RGB and then using an Adobe RGB printer manages workflow even on consumer level, single black, printers gave surprisingly good results (much less green cast than was otherwise typical).

What you can't do with the printer manages workflow is to easily linearise or reprofile to deal with changing environments (wear and tear on the printer, average temperature and humidity, and so on - things that are taken into account with customer ICC profiles made by you on your printer in your workspace.  Mostly, though, I suspect it doesn't matter unless you're trying to hit FOGRA certification targets or the like (in which case you're a proofer and that's a whole different usage).

Of course, having just said you can't linearise that's actually not true.  For the Epson professional range, at least, you can use ColorBase (Michael did a review on it years ago when it first came out - https://luminous-landscape.com/epson-colorbase/ ).  This will allow you to essentially do a software linearization.  You could even use it to modify an existing driver media setting to deal with a third party media, but I suspect it would need to start pretty close.  You can, also, get a technician to do a firmware level colour adjustment on the printer, but that's hardly the sort of thing you want to be doing regularly.

For ease, broad media applicability, consistency, ease of single(ish) workflow, and other factors, I prefer the ICC workflow, but the printer manages workflow is entirely feasible, effective, and produces great results if you use it properly.
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Phil Brown

Doug Gray

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2017, 01:40:35 am »

I've seen it said that printer manages color can "sometimes" provide superior results in certain edge case situations often when dealing with highly saturated colors but I don't ever recall seeing any authoritative proof that is not the exception vs the rule. (and I include Ctein in that group).

I can certainly see how someone using the Canon 9500 II might like printer manages color better. The default settings maps sRGB, and, to a lesser extent, Adobe RGB, quite differently from I1Profiler custom profiles. In particular on the greens. The 9500 has a green ink which gives a gamut boost in parts of the greens in the range of roughly L=50 to 70.  They really boost Perceptual intent a lot. And this is over and above what their included profiles, which do a bit of this too, produce when using Photoshop manages color.

It's impossible to softproof decently the 9500 when operated that way even using Ctien's approach of selecting a similar profile for softproofing.  OTOH, it's quite apparent his softproof setup is not something he has perfected. His work is first class though and I guess his approach works for him. What led me to really concentrate on a good softproof setup, which is not something you just slap together, is repro work. It really helps there and I hate wasting paper.

Also, I don't usually use Perceptual because it is intrinsically variable. Unspecified really. I'll work in Photoshop when trying to make an attractive (not repro) image and know that Colorimetric prints on any device will visually match so long as it is within gamut. So I've always used Photoshop manages color. After the tests I ran I'm more convinced than ever that is the best way to maintain consistency.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2017, 08:56:43 am »


Of course, having just said you can't linearise that's actually not true.  For the Epson professional range, at least, you can use ColorBase (Michael did a review on it years ago when it first came out - https://luminous-landscape.com/epson-colorbase/ ).  This will allow you to essentially do a software linearization.  You could even use it to modify an existing driver media setting to deal with a third party media, but I suspect it would need to start pretty close.  You can, also, get a technician to do a firmware level colour adjustment on the printer, but that's hardly the sort of thing you want to be doing regularly.

For ease, broad media applicability, consistency, ease of single(ish) workflow, and other factors, I prefer the ICC workflow, but the printer manages workflow is entirely feasible, effective, and produces great results if you use it properly.
Phil,

I just looked and ColorBase is still available from Epson (Michael's review is from 2005).  I checked the Epson support site and they have a ColorBase release date of 2013 listed (it takes several minutes to install as it provides calibration services for all the listed Epson printers!!  I may just test it out on a couple of papers to see how it works). 

I remember an article by Mark Dubovoy from several years ago where he said the standard settings for Epson printers don't give enough color saturation for his use and that the settings need to be tweaked (I'll see if I can track down the reference).  I'm pretty sure that this was for 3rd party papers but cannot remember if he provided a workflow for that.  I know that ArgyllCMS provides a lot of tools to do printer calibration but I've not investigated those for my 3880 (I think they are designed more for CMYK printers where ink lay down is a big issue).

Most of the time, I just use the 3rd party's suggested paper type for profiling.  However, I'm looking at a couple of Moab papers these days and maybe I'll play around with things to see what can be optimized.

Scott Martin published this article on optimizing the media selection:  http://www.on-sight.com/how-to-determine-the-optimal-media-selection-for-any-paper/

EDIT:  Dubovoy article is here:  https://luminous-landscape.com/in-search-of-the-ultimate-inkjet-print/  (at the end he decides Imageprint is the way to go).
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 09:02:20 am by Alan Goldhammer »
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Farmer

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2017, 09:21:22 am »

Let us know how you go, Alan.  It's a little-known, under-used, utility - but it's very much still supported and working.  I'd be interested to see how it goes with 3rd party media, but bear in mind that it will change the underlying profile for that media in the driver, so if you use it for more than 1 media type it could be an issue (but you should be able to create some variations).
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Phil Brown

Mark D Segal

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2017, 09:31:57 am »

I've reviewed "Printer Manages Color" on this website, and found that while it can do a decent job, a properly managed ICC application-managed workflow will in general deliver more accurate and more pleasing results, quite apart from the limitations using 3rd party media. As a "quick and not-so-dirty" fix, however, it's not bad. I just don't see the point of bothering with it when we have more controllable and better quality options. It's for people who don't want to be bothered with colour management etc. and that's fine. I've also reviewed (on this website) ABW versus the application-managed ICC route for B&W using contemporary 17 inch models and generally found that the differences can be subtle and are not worth the sacrifice of control over the shape of the tone range.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2017, 12:35:42 pm »

Let us know how you go, Alan.  It's a little-known, under-used, utility - but it's very much still supported and working.  I'd be interested to see how it goes with 3rd party media, but bear in mind that it will change the underlying profile for that media in the driver, so if you use it for more than 1 media type it could be an issue (but you should be able to create some variations).
Phil,

Thanks for the cautionary statement!!!  Yes, it looks as if that is what the utility does.  I have the original download file for the driver and can always reinstall it if things go bad.  It does look as though you can make variations as it asks you to input a name.  I'm going to try to do a little more reading up on this before I use it.
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Garnick

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2017, 12:55:48 pm »

Phil,

I just looked and ColorBase is still available from Epson (Michael's review is from 2005).  I checked the Epson support site and they have a ColorBase release date of 2013 listed (it takes several minutes to install as it provides calibration services for all the listed Epson printers!!  I may just test it out on a couple of papers to see how it works). 

Hello Alan,

I've just perused the Epson site/Support and cannot find anything relating to ColorBase.  Would you please send a link to the software/download.

Thank you,
Gary 
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Gary N.
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unesco

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2017, 01:19:59 pm »

Hello Alan,

I've just perused the Epson site/Support and cannot find anything relating to ColorBase.  Would you please send a link to the software/download.

Thank you,
Gary

what printer do you have?
there are two incarnations: ColorBase (most old Stylus Pro printers, quite complicated workflow) and ColorBase2 (sometimes marked as ColorBase, 13" and 17" Sure Color printers, simplified workflow - only one Epson paper type needed, ColorMunkiPhoto supported; higher models have other dedicated software)
You can download ColorBase2 eg. here under "Other Software": https://www.epson.co.uk/support?productID=13919#product_search
direct link: ftp://download.epson-europe.com/pub/download/5129/epson512989eu.exe
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Garnick

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2017, 01:46:58 pm »

what printer do you have?
there are two incarnations: ColorBase (most old Stylus Pro printers, quite complicated workflow) and ColorBase2 (sometimes marked as ColorBase, 13" and 17" Sure Color printers, simplified workflow - only one Epson paper type needed, ColorMunkiPhoto supported; higher models have other dedicated software)
You can download ColorBase2 eg. here under "Other Software": https://www.epson.co.uk/support?productID=13919#product_search
direct link: ftp://download.epson-europe.com/pub/download/5129/epson512989eu.exe

Don't know why, but I hadn't thought of checking the printer driver support.  I'm using the P7000, and there is no such software listed for that printer in the "Other Software" section.

Thanks for the reply, you pointed me in the right direction  :)

Gary
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Gary N.
"My memory isn't what it used to be. As a matter of fact it never was." (gan)

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2017, 01:53:41 pm »

Don't know why, but I hadn't thought of checking the printer driver support.  I'm using the P7000, and there is no such software listed for that printer in the "Other Software" section.

Thanks for the reply, you pointed me in the right direction  :)

Gary
I think this software is only available on the Epson European website.  I got mine from here:  http://esupport.epson-europe.com/SupportHome.aspx?lng=en-GB&data=0ccCGROWIYM58zV3pqc84W2LhUcmWnHiUk31CNK52sUU003D   I punched in your printer and it was not listed so I think that means the software is not supported for the P7000.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2017, 04:16:56 pm »

I've attached charts plotting the measured Lab values on Epson Matte Heavyweight using Photoshop manages as well as various printer manages settings available under "ICM" in the main dialog.

There was no automatic conversion to sRGB but one of the settings forcibly interprets the data as sRGB.

Summarizing the 4 charts by ID number.

These three were made using Printer Manages Color with ICM selected in the main printer device dialog.
13: Chart converted to Adobe RGB then printed using ICM and selecting Adobe RGB as input source.
15: Chart converted to sRGB then printed using ICM and selecting sRGB as input source.
17: Chart in Lab then printed using ICM and selecting use Host ICM.

This chart was made using Photoshop Manages Color with no color management selected in the main printer device dialog.
16: Chart in Lab.

All but chart #15 shows a reasonable rendering of Perceptual color with clipping around the paper's gamut limit. It's a matte paper and the Adobe RGB gamut is near the printer gamut limit.

Chart $15 shows the expected values of the chart converted to sRGB and interpreted by the printer driver as sRGB.

Caveat: Chart 16 was made with the Epson installed profiles. I don't have custom profiles for matte on the 9800. I don't often use matte (MK ink) but have been running engineering drawings on it and don't want to change inks just to run these tests.

In any case it's clear that the Espon 9800 is fully capable of using Adobe RGB working spaces when having the printer manage color.  For that matter it can even process Lab! If it first converts Lab to an RGB space, it is at least as wide as Adobe RGB.

Also, the 9800 and it's profiles don't intrinsically push saturation and luminance unlike the large boosts of the Canon 9500. That's up next and it is eye opening.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 04:20:45 pm by Doug Gray »
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Farmer

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2017, 07:01:54 pm »

I think this software is only available on the Epson European website.  I got mine from here:  http://esupport.epson-europe.com/SupportHome.aspx?lng=en-GB&data=0ccCGROWIYM58zV3pqc84W2LhUcmWnHiUk31CNK52sUU003D   I punched in your printer and it was not listed so I think that means the software is not supported for the P7000.

As an Aussie, I'm typically referencing things available locally.  So it's not just the EU site.  I expect it will be somewhere on the US site, too.

The P7000 is the P7070 here, and there is Epson Color Calibration Utility 1.21 available.  That might help.
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Phil Brown

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2017, 07:29:52 pm »

I've been looking at how "printer manages color" works and what it's limitations are. My curiosity was triggered when reading the thread on ABW where some interesting links existed to posts advocating using the printer's device driver to manage color. At least on Apples.

I posted the links to the C'tein TOP articles in another Lula thread in the context of printing B&W via ABW on Windows using printer manages colors.  Since the discussion has shifted to color printing, I should ensure that Doug has seen the definitive analysis of C'tein's result by Mark (MHMG):

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=104307.msg857415#msg857415

I realize that Doug's focus is mainly on the behavior of the Windows printing pipeline under various settings.
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Garnick

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2017, 08:23:33 pm »

I think this software is only available on the Epson European website.  I got mine from here:  http://esupport.epson-europe.com/SupportHome.aspx?lng=en-GB&data=0ccCGROWIYM58zV3pqc84W2LhUcmWnHiUk31CNK52sUU003D   I punched in your printer and it was not listed so I think that means the software is not supported for the P7000.

Thank you for that Alan.  It definitely isn't supported on the US site, and I assumed the P7000 is not one that qualifies for this software regardless.

Gary
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Gary N.
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Chris Kern

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2017, 08:26:15 pm »

I've reviewed "Printer Manages Color" on this website, and found that while it can do a decent job, a properly managed ICC application-managed workflow will in general deliver more accurate and more pleasing results, quite apart from the limitations using 3rd party media. As a "quick and not-so-dirty" fix, however, it's not bad. I just don't see the point of bothering with it when we have more controllable and better quality options.

I think this point—more controllable and better quality options—captures the essence of the issue.  "Printer Manages Color" may work well in what Jeff Schewe refers to as some edge cases, but how are you going to know without an expenditure of paper, ink and time to generate comparative prints?  Certainly not something I would want to do every time I make a print.

(Note: I understand that ABW may be a special case.)

At least using Lightroom's soft-proofing—I no longer print from Photoshop but I presume its capabilities are similar—I've had no issues with color-matching or tone between the proof and the print.  Dynamic range?  That's another story.  But no printing technique on current reflective media is going to solve that particular problem.

Maybe if I was doing a museum exhibition, I might be tempted to experiment with the alternatives.  But I'm still waiting for the first museum to call. . . .

Doug Gray

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2017, 11:13:25 pm »

I posted the links to the C'tein TOP articles in another Lula thread in the context of printing B&W via ABW on Windows using printer manages colors.  Since the discussion has shifted to color printing, I should ensure that Doug has seen the definitive analysis of C'tein's result by Mark (MHMG):

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=104307.msg857415#msg857415

I realize that Doug's focus is mainly on the behavior of the Windows printing pipeline under various settings.

Thanks for the link to Mark's comment. I agree completely with it as well as Andrew's and other's general skepticism. I also found Ctein's discounting of soft proofing odd as I find it works very well. Especially with properly made profiles. I've seen flaws in Epson canned profiles that badly mess up soft proofing. Especially in shadows. But PM5 and I1Profiler make proper profiles and soft proofing using them works very well.

Please don't take this thread to mean I advocate printer color management. I do not and the reasons go beyond the inability to use softproofing with any sort of reliability.

One reason I ran some tests on it is just to see if the problem of being limited to sRGB in Windows is true. It isn't At least for the two printers I have on current PS S/W with Win 10.

The other reason is that from time to time I run across comments (not so much here) from folks that have been happy with printer managing color then, when they attempt to jump into proper color management, are disappointed. Often saying things like "my prints are too dark" or they "looked better when I let the printer do it." Andrew even has a video that addresses that oft made comment.

So I have also been curious as to how printer drivers are set to operate. And sure enough, especially on the Canon 9500 II, the printer boosts brightness and color saturation a lot. When viewed at a lower reflected light level than monitors are often set at, higher saturation and luminance can provide more pleasing prints and even make them appear to be closer to that shown on the monitor. But none of this is controlled or replaceable over time and printer models.
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Farmer

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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2017, 12:21:14 am »

But none of this is controlled or replaceable over time and printer models.

And that's one of the key problems and it's why the vendors offer canned profiles for their papers and ICC workflows in the drivers and other software they offer.  Printer manages can be great, but Doug's nailed it there very succinctly as to why most people don't favour it.
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Re: Printer Manages Color: Down the Rabbit Hole
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2017, 07:59:25 am »

Regarding the Epson ColorBase utility, after doing a lot of reading up on it I don't think I will venture down that rabbit hole.  Since I use ArgyllCMS to construct profiles, I'm able to do printer calibration using that tool.  It won't affect the printer driver in the same manner that the Epson utility will and I would have to construct a new profile if the printer deviated from linearity but that's pretty easy to do.  Under Argyll, I would just have to read the simple patch test and then link it to the ICC profile to adjust for the drift.  I should also be able to periodically print out the calibration chart and measure it to see if there is any drift.
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