Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Sony 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 GM OSS  (Read 18662 times)

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Sony 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 GM OSS
« on: July 29, 2017, 03:05:16 pm »

First formal tests are out, and it seems to bear out the subjective reviews and sample images from current users - namely, that it's super-sharp, even against the class-leading Canon 100-400L II, and even holds up well against primes.

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compare/Side-by-side/Sony-FE-100-400mm-F45-56-GM-OSS-on-Sony-A7R-II-versus-Canon-EF-100-400mm-F45-56L-IS-II-USM-on-Canon-EOS-5DS-R-versus-Canon-EF-200-400mm-F4L-IS-USM-Extender-14x-on-Canon-EOS-5DS-R__1850_1035_1469_1009_1161_1009

Ignore the idiotic global scores (seriously, who gives points for 'transmission' and marks down an f/5.6 lens for being, uh, f/5.6 rather than f/2.8 - you know what you're getting when you buy it) and look at the data behind behind it (under the Measurements tab). 'Acutance' seems to be a weighted amalgamation of MTF curves at different frequencies (someone at FredMiranda or DPR came up with a formula to convert between the two with reasonable accuracy).

I'll wait to see if Lensrentals' MTF plots confirm it, but this almost makes up for the 70-200 GM lemon, and could well be the ideal landscape telephoto lens, covering a good range of focal lengths in one lens for hiking and travel, and being good enough for occasional wildlife and nature shoots on a non-dedicated-wildlife trip.
Logged

JKoerner007

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 262
  • "A picture's worth a thousand words."
    • John Koerner Photography
Re: Sony 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 GM OSS
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2017, 08:10:08 pm »

First formal tests are out, and it seems to bear out the subjective reviews and sample images from current users - namely, that it's super-sharp, even against the class-leading Canon 100-400L II, and even holds up well against primes.

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compare/Side-by-side/Sony-FE-100-400mm-F45-56-GM-OSS-on-Sony-A7R-II-versus-Canon-EF-100-400mm-F45-56L-IS-II-USM-on-Canon-EOS-5DS-R-versus-Canon-EF-200-400mm-F4L-IS-USM-Extender-14x-on-Canon-EOS-5DS-R__1850_1035_1469_1009_1161_1009

Ignore the idiotic global scores (seriously, who gives points for 'transmission' and marks down an f/5.6 lens for being, uh, f/5.6 rather than f/2.8 - you know what you're getting when you buy it) and look at the data behind behind it (under the Measurements tab). 'Acutance' seems to be a weighted amalgamation of MTF curves at different frequencies (someone at FredMiranda or DPR came up with a formula to convert between the two with reasonable accuracy).

I'll wait to see if Lensrentals' MTF plots confirm it, but this almost makes up for the 70-200 GM lemon, and could well be the ideal landscape telephoto lens, covering a good range of focal lengths in one lens for hiking and travel, and being good enough for occasional wildlife and nature shoots on a non-dedicated-wildlife trip.

Using your same reference points, I personally have two cameras, a D500 and a D810, along with two telephotos: a Zeiss 135 APO (for short-range), and a Nikkor 300mm (for long range).

The former blows the Sony away; and
The latter blows the Sony away.

Between the 135 APO and the 300mm Nikkor, I can not only beat the Sony zoom, but with my  2x TC III can get 270, 300, 450, 600, and 900 mm ranges, respectively. This is far more useful to me.

The Sony charges $450 for its teleconverter, but its rating/functionality is pretty low, and compared to what you can do with Nikkor primes, Sony zooms/TCs are not worth the effort.

I am positive I could crop the Zeiss 135 images and get better results than with the Sony 100-400 (at 100).
I am equally-positive I could also crop my 300 f/2.8 VR II + extender images would get better results than with the Sony 100-400 + extender efforts (at telephoto).

I am also positive I could do better everywhere inbetween.

Never liked most zooms. But that's just me.

prairiewing

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 64
    • Pat Gerlach, Photographer
Re: Sony 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 GM OSS
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2017, 08:53:08 pm »

Using your same reference points, I personally have two cameras, a D500 and a D810, along with two telephotos: a Zeiss 135 APO (for short-range), and a Nikkor 300mm (for long range).

The former blows the Sony away; and
The latter blows the Sony away.

Between the 135 APO and the 300mm Nikkor, I can not only beat the Sony zoom, but with my  2x TC III can get 270, 300, 450, 600, and 900 mm ranges, respectively. This is far more useful to me.

The Sony charges $450 for its teleconverter, but its rating/functionality is pretty low, and compared to what you can do with Nikkor primes, Sony zooms/TCs are not worth the effort.

I am positive I could crop the Zeiss 135 images and get better results than with the Sony 100-400 (at 100).
I am equally-positive I could also crop my 300 f/2.8 VR II + extender images would get better results than with the Sony 100-400 + extender efforts (at telephoto).

I am also positive I could do better everywhere inbetween.

Never liked most zooms. But that's just me.

I photograph a lot of large wild mammals, often going from close ups to landscapes with animals and back again in a matter of seconds, depending on backgrounds and the movements and poses of animals.  In June a group of 4 young wild stallions moved in among several bands of wild horses generally just raising hell. I had two bodies, 2 lenses,  24-70 and a 100-400.  The action was furious for about a half-hour, I shot constantly, often changing focal lengths several times a minute.
There's no way I could have kept up with primes.  I know because that's what I used to use.  I know many professional photographers who frequently use 100-400 and find it indispensable in many conditions, often paired in the field with a 500 or 600.

The answers to most photographic questions seem to start with "It depends....".
To say that one set of gear is better for anyone other than ones self has always seemed silly to me.
Logged
Pat Gerlach
   Pat Gerlach, Photographer

JKoerner007

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 262
  • "A picture's worth a thousand words."
    • John Koerner Photography
Re: Sony 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 GM OSS
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2017, 09:03:35 pm »

I photograph a lot of large wild mammals, often going from close ups to landscapes with animals and back again in a matter of seconds, depending on backgrounds and the movements and poses of animals.  In June a group of 4 young wild stallions moved in among several bands of wild horses generally just raising hell.

Large animals and small animals present different challenges.



I had two bodies, 2 lenses,  24-70 and a 100-400. 

Neither really suffices for birds.



The action was furious for about a half-hour, I shot constantly, often changing focal lengths several times a minute.
There's no way I could have kept up with primes.  I know because that's what I used to use.  I know many professional photographers who frequently use 100-400 and find it indispensable in many conditions, often paired in the field with a 500 or 600.

The answers to most photographic questions seem to start with "It depends....".

True enough, I agree.



To say that one set of gear is better for anyone other than ones self has always seemed silly to me.

With this, I have to disagree.

The answer goes back to, it depends what we're shooting.

There really *are* some better options than others, based on the above.

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: Sony 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 GM OSS
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2017, 09:09:18 pm »




I'll wait to see if Lensrentals' MTF plots confirm it, but this almost makes up for the 70-200 GM lemon, and could well be the ideal landscape telephoto lens, covering a good range of focal lengths in one lens for hiking and travel, and being good enough for occasional wildlife and nature shoots on a non-dedicated-wildlife trip.

On order and expected soon. Will report MTF50, LoCA, and focus shift when I get it, as well as the usual stuff. I hate to test zooms; it's at least three times as much work.

Jim

hogloff

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1187
Re: Sony 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 GM OSS
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2017, 09:16:55 pm »

Using your same reference points, I personally have two cameras, a D500 and a D810, along with two telephotos: a Zeiss 135 APO (for short-range), and a Nikkor 300mm (for long range).

The former blows the Sony away; and
The latter blows the Sony away.

Between the 135 APO and the 300mm Nikkor, I can not only beat the Sony zoom, but with my  2x TC III can get 270, 300, 450, 600, and 900 mm ranges, respectively. This is far more useful to me.

The Sony charges $450 for its teleconverter, but its rating/functionality is pretty low, and compared to what you can do with Nikkor primes, Sony zooms/TCs are not worth the effort.

I am positive I could crop the Zeiss 135 images and get better results than with the Sony 100-400 (at 100).
I am equally-positive I could also crop my 300 f/2.8 VR II + extender images would get better results than with the Sony 100-400 + extender efforts (at telephoto).

I am also positive I could do better everywhere inbetween.

Never liked most zooms. But that's just me.

Wow...such insights...dedicated primes blow away zooms...such reevaluations. Now let's compare Nikon zooms in this range and see how they stack up. I shoot Rodeos and there is no way in hell a prime lens would allow me to come back with as many keepers as my zoom. When the action moves from the far side of the arena to close up and then to the middle...you'd be sitting there twiddling your awesome primes as I would continue to shoot the action.

Let's keep thus discussion to what its intended purpose...the 100-400 zoom range of lenses.
Logged

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: Sony 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 GM OSS
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2017, 09:55:24 pm »

You're comparing primes vs zooms. This initial test suggests that the new lens is sharper across the frame than the current class-leading zooms (Canon 100-400, Sigma 120-300, Canon 200-400). It also matches some of the primes at comparable apertures - obviously not the very best ones (e.g. 400 f/2.8, of either Canon or Nikon make) but a significant number of the others. Will need to wait for proper MTF charts to be published (most likely by Lensrentals) but it's looking promising.

There's no comparison between the utility of zooms and primes when shooting landscapes. 'Foot-zooming' doesn't work - it changes the relative size and position of different scene elements within the frame, or requires you to move to an inaccessible location (off a cliff, into the air, etc.). Cropping costs you valuable megapixels. So, in general, the focal length you need is dictated by the shooting position you need (or the shooting position you can get) and is rarely a round number. A 300mm lens does you no good if you actually need 270mm or 370mm for a proper composition - it's too long for the former, while you're cropping for the latter. A good zoom set to 370mm will give you more detail than a 300mm prime cropped to the same angle of view, particularly if both lenses are stopped down (as is typical for shooting landscapes).

When shooting wildlife or sports, you often have to zoom back and forth a lot, especially in situations where subjects are large or can come very close (e.g. shooting animals in East/South Africa, or trackside at an athletics competition). One moment you might need 500mm, the next you need 200mm or shorter. No time to change lenses here. That's why a combination of 200-400 with inbuilt 1.4x TC on one body and a 500 f/4 (with 1.4x TC attached) on another body is such a potent combination for a dedicated wildlife trip. You've got the zoom for anything that's large, close or both, as well as the prime for small or distant subjects where you're focal length constrained and just need as many pixels to crop from as possible.

As for your specific examples, look at the 'Profiles' under the 'Sharpness' tab. This gets rid of all the garbage about 'perceptive megapixels', the 'transmission' value that gives a bonus to fast lenses and a penalty to slow ones, etc. and just looks purely at the sharpness.

At 300mm f/5.6, the Sony is a bit sharper than the prime in the centre and a bit weaker in the edges (and 300mm seems to be the Sony's weak spot - it's better at both 200mm and 400mm). If you're shooting at 350mm, vs cropping from the 300mm prime, you've more than lost this advantage at the edges.

With the Sony at 100mm f/4.5 and the Zeiss at 135mm f/4, the Sony is a bit sharper in the centre, and just as sharp at the edges (although the Sony has more astigmatism there - the tangential sharpness is better than the prime, but the sagittal is worse)

The primes do better distortion-wise, but none of them have high distortion, and low to moderate distortion barely matters when shooting landscapes (not too many straight lines), especially at long focal lengths.

Also, why would you compare 300 prime plus TC with 100-400 plus TC? The 300 prime will reach 420mm with a 1.4x TC. The 400mm can already reach 400mm without a TC. So it makes more sense to compare the 300mm with 1.4x TC vs 100-400 without TC, or 300mm with 2x TC vs 100-400 with 1.4x TC.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 10:11:32 pm by shadowblade »
Logged

hogloff

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1187
Re: Sony 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 GM OSS
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2017, 10:13:59 pm »

Yes, it only makes sense to compare zooms to other zooms in the same range. Having to compare this new Sony against class leading primes just goes to show just how good this 100-400 really is. Not a bad follow up by Sony to their other great zoom, 12-24...which is also being compared to primes in that focal range.
Logged

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: Sony 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 GM OSS
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2017, 04:25:20 am »

It looks very sharp in this review too: http://www.imaging-resource.com/lenses/sony/fe-100-400mm-f4.5-5.6-gm-oss-sel100400gm/review/#fieldtest

Certainly up to standard as a wildlife/sports lens for a non-dedicated trip, or as a second lens in addition to a 500mm prime.

Still need to wait for MTF measurements to assess corner performance for landscapes, though. Even the brick wall shot isn't much use for this, since it appears to have been taken nowhere near infinity and the corners aren't in focus (perhaps due to field curvature, and on one side of the image because the two sections of the wall aren't in line with each other).

A direct head-to-head against the Canon 100-400 and 200-400, as well as the Sigma options,  would also be very useful. But we'll probably have to wait a few months for that.
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Re: Sony 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 GM OSS
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2017, 06:00:02 pm »

. . . I personally have . . . two telephotos: a Zeiss 135 APO (for short-range), and a Nikkor 300mm (for long range).
How are those two primes in anyway a relevant comparison to a 4X zoom lens that goes both wider and longer than them? The Nikon 80-400/4.5-5.6 seems the more natural comparison.

You might as well have just started and finished with
Never liked most zooms. But that's just me.
Logged

davidgp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 758
    • davidgp fotografia
Re: Sony 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 GM OSS
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2017, 04:08:22 am »

It looks very sharp in this review too: http://www.imaging-resource.com/lenses/sony/fe-100-400mm-f4.5-5.6-gm-oss-sel100400gm/review/#fieldtest

Certainly up to standard as a wildlife/sports lens for a non-dedicated trip, or as a second lens in addition to a 500mm prime.

Still need to wait for MTF measurements to assess corner performance for landscapes, though. Even the brick wall shot isn't much use for this, since it appears to have been taken nowhere near infinity and the corners aren't in focus (perhaps due to field curvature, and on one side of the image because the two sections of the wall aren't in line with each other).

A direct head-to-head against the Canon 100-400 and 200-400, as well as the Sigma options,  would also be very useful. But we'll probably have to wait a few months for that.


In Fred Miranda you can see some tests at infinity: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1501962. , in that copy looks like the weakest spot is 200 (that it is good, but worst that the same lens at 100, 300, or 400).

Roger from Lens Rentals says that they will generate MTF charts for the lens and compare to the Canon option... but they are now very busy doing other things so it could take some months. I usually trust them... and they say when something is not working, like with the 70-200 GM.

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: Sony 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 GM OSS
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2017, 05:15:26 am »


In Fred Miranda you can see some tests at infinity: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1501962. , in that copy looks like the weakest spot is 200 (that it is good, but worst that the same lens at 100, 300, or 400).

Thanks.

DxO's tests seem to suggest a (relative) weak spot at 300mm.  This could be due to the different testing distance (fairly close-up rather than infinity) or it could be due to sample variation (different copies of the same zoom can be stronger or weaker at different focal lengths). But even that 'weak spot' is rated as sharp compared to other zooms (and as good as all but the best primes) - for something to match the Canon 200-400 f/4 sharpness-wise, at the same aperture, is impressive.

I just wish they'd publish the raw MTFs as they did previously, instead of the stupid 'acutance' weighted average of MTFs at several different frequencies. 'Acutance' might be easier for people without technical understanding to read, but those without a technical bent are unlikely to be looking closely at MTF charts anyway.

Quote
Roger from Lens Rentals says that they will generate MTF charts for the lens and compare to the Canon option... but they are now very busy doing other things so it could take some months. I usually trust them... and they say when something is not working, like with the 70-200 GM.

That's the test I'm looking forward to - both his methods and data presentation are transparent, with the data presented in a universal format (even better than LW/PH, which many other istes use), and infinity testing is most relevant to landscape photography, where sharpness (particularly corner sharpness) is at a premium. Photos of non-infinity subjects are often  not going to be in focus at the edges and corners anyway, so you don't need the best corner performance there (which is why the 70-200 GM and Nikon 70-200 VR II are decent as event/sports/portrait lenses - the poor edge performance doesn't matter when the edges aren't in focus anyway), but corners are critical for landscapes and other applications where everything is in focus.
Logged

davidgp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 758
    • davidgp fotografia
Sony 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 GM OSS
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2017, 04:04:18 am »


That's the test I'm looking forward to - both his methods and data presentation are transparent, with the data presented in a universal format (even better than LW/PH, which many other istes use), and infinity testing is most relevant to landscape photography, where sharpness (particularly corner sharpness) is at a premium. Photos of non-infinity subjects are often  not going to be in focus at the edges and corners anyway, so you don't need the best corner performance there (which is why the 70-200 GM and Nikon 70-200 VR II are decent as event/sports/portrait lenses - the poor edge performance doesn't matter when the edges aren't in focus anyway), but corners are critical for landscapes and other applications where everything is in focus.

I forgot to mention it before, here are Roger's comments that he started testing the lens but it will take him some weeks to show the results: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1501614/1#14127247

Since I think they want to have at least 10 lens tested before showing results and some clients will want to rent it meanwhile, it will take time... I suppose
Pages: [1]   Go Up