There has literally been nothing I've wanted to buy this year! Is that... good?!

[narikin]

Long time MF user here - one of the first to get IQ100 in USA, (and IQ180, P65+, P45+ before that). Also own Alpa's (various) Sony, Canon and Leica cameras, and Phase XF, DF, etc. The point is: there has literally been no 'must have' piece of gear for me this year. I'm amazed, and my wallet is happy, but I'm wondering what happened, and is it only me?

I'm at 28,000+ (non commercial) exposures for my IQ100, and extremely happy with it. The new Fuji GFX and Hassy MF cameras look promising, but once you're on 100Mp it's very hard to step down to 50Mp and still be in MF. When new versions at 80+ Mp come, I'll possibly buy in, but not yet. If I need light body with good AF and fast quiet operation, I'll take the A7R2. But once you've gotten used to a 100mp output from IQ100 on Capture One's profiles, anything else is *so* poor in comparison, it's tough to swallow.

Quite honestly the best 'gear' I got in the last year was free firmware 'Feature Set' from Phase - the Focus Stack and Electronic Shutter options. Great  improvements to existing equipment, and you can't beat the price!

When/if Phase bring out a new Mirrorless body, or a GFX2 comes out, I'll probably jump, assuming it's at least 80mp, otherwise, I'm just content with things.

[Ken]

I agree with you, and add image stabilization (and sensor dust removal would be nice too but not a requirement) by any camera mfg and I'm in!

[Joe Towner]

Drone? DJI M600 to hang the 100mp from?

Any money not spent on gear rolls over to adventures right?

[voidshatter]

Previous flagship sensors' life-cycles (on the throne):

Phase One P65+ 60MP (Sep 2008 - Sep 2010) $40,000 for 24 months
Leaf Aptus-II 12/R 80MP (Sep 2010 - Jan 2016) $32,000 for 63 months
Phase One IQ3100 100MP (Jan 2016 - ?) $44,000 for ? months

It's expected that IMX411 (150MP 54mm x 40mm) will be ready in 2018, which means IMX211 (100MP 54mm x 40mm) will justify about the same as the 60MP Dalsa CCD did for about two years (if pre-orders have been delivered without much impact of the earthquake in Japan).

[hubell]

Long time MF user here - one of the first to get IQ100 in USA, (and IQ180, P65+, P45+ before that). Also own Alpa's (various) Sony, Canon and Leica cameras, and Phase XF, DF, etc. The point is: there has literally been no 'must have' piece of gear for me this year. I'm amazed, and my wallet is happy, but I'm wondering what happened, and is it only me?

I'm at 28,000+ (non commercial) exposures for my IQ100, and extremely happy with it. The new Fuji GFX and Hassy MF cameras look promising, but once you're on 100Mp it's very hard to step down to 50Mp and still be in MF. When new versions at 80+ Mp come, I'll possibly buy in, but not yet. If I need light body with good AF and fast quiet operation, I'll take the A7R2. But once you've gotten used to a 100mp output from IQ100 on Capture One's profiles, anything else is *so* poor in comparison, it's tough to swallow.

Quite honestly the best 'gear' I got in the last year was free firmware 'Feature Set' from Phase - the Focus Stack and Electronic Shutter options. Great  improvements to existing equipment, and you can't beat the price!

When/if Phase bring out a new Mirrorless body, or a GFX2 comes out, I'll probably jump, assuming it's at least 80mp, otherwise, I'm just content with things.

Your gnawing, self doubt will dissipate soon enough. Phase will likely announce a new 150MP digital back in 2018 and you will then wonder (a) how you ever got along with a mere 100MP and (b) how could you be bothered with a Fuji GFX2 or a Hasselblad X2D with a 100MP sensor when your other camera has 150MP.

[vjbelle]

The upcoming 150MP back will be the first back that I will demand to try before buy.  Most of my lenses are f11 or bust with a few able to shoot at f8 with almost '0' dof). I can already see diffraction effects with my 3100 at f11 vs f10 or f9.  I am able to easily mitigate the small effects so far but the next iteration may not be as easy to work with.  Makes no sense to have more pixels just to throw them away with the effects of diffraction.

Victor

[narikin]

Personally I can't wait for 150Mp. I already stitch more than I care to for high resolution XL prints, and it will be great to not have to do that so much.
If I can get the results in a single shot, rather than 2 or 4, then, great!

Yes lens resolution starts to play into things, and I too have noticed that diffraction does come into play by f11 already, but I'll take the extra res any day, please. Luckily I'm on new generation Rodies for my tech cameras, and those are pretty great. Also, on the subject of resolution, have to say I've been stunned by the sharpness from Focus-stacking on the XF.  It's quick startling. Not sure why - maybe it is just using the very best bit of D-o-F for each image? And rejecting anything that is merely 'acceptable'. Whatever it's doing, it gives scintillating results.

[Wayne Fox]

The upcoming 150MP back will be the first back that I will demand to try before buy.  Most of my lenses are f11 or bust with a few able to shoot at f8 with almost '0' dof). I can already see diffraction effects with my 3100 at f11 vs f10 or f9.  I am able to easily mitigate the small effects so far but the next iteration may not be as easy to work with.  Makes no sense to have more pixels just to throw them away with the effects of diffraction.

Victor

There's more at work here than just diffraction.  personally I think at 150mp we'll finally be getting close to the point where the limitation of resolution is actually the lens, but that limit will be rendered in a "pleasing" manner without artifacts, a smoothness akin to 8x10 film.

Personally I would like to see us arrive at a 400mp sensor that is designed to capture at 100mp resolution ... no more bayer artifact as each 4 pixels records it's own color information. Either that or some way to get each sensel to record it's true color,  aka Merrill, but with the dynamic range/low noise ISO of current sony cmos sensors.

I'm delighted with my IQ3 100, but I can't imagine I wouldn't move to 150mp when it shows up.  I'll admit I'm more excited about moving my GFX to 80-100mp however.

[Christopher]

There are more than enough phase lenses rdy for 200/300MP

35/45/80/110/150


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[hubell]

There are more than enough phase lenses rdy for 200/300MP

35/45/80/110/150


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How would you know? Have you tried them with 200-300MP sensors? From what I have seen with the Hasselblad HC lenses compared to the X1D lenses and the Fuji GFX lenses, the medium format lenses designed most recently are a step up above the older medium format lenses. Some of the Phase lenses are new designs; some are old designs.

[Christopher]

Because it happened before. With canon and Nikon lenses. There were a few gems which were great on 12Mp and they are still great on a 50MP camera. (Of course only a few)

There are Leica R lenses which are old and still performed perfectly on modern high resolution sensors.

Besides that I cannot say anything about HCD lenses as I never owned them.  I can and do test all lenses before keeping them. In addition, there was a reason I left some of the lenses out from phase line.

The 35,45,150 are a new design and just amazing. Sharp corner to corner wide open and moire often enough even on the 100MP sensor.

The 80/100 are older designs and many of the none blue ring and still some with the blue ring are melons, but there are copies which are as good as the new designs.

So sure I cannot say exactly what will happen with 200/300MP, but I'm pretty sure the lenses I wrote are fine.

It's the same with the GFX. I'm pretty sure all lenses will be more then fine on a 100MP sensor.


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[hcubell]

Because it happened before. With canon and Nikon lenses. There were a few gems which were great on 12Mp and they are still great on a 50MP camera. (Of course only a few)

There are Leica R lenses which are old and still performed perfectly on modern high resolution sensors.

Besides that I cannot say anything about HCD lenses as I never owned them.  I can and do test all lenses before keeping them. In addition, there was a reason I left some of the lenses out from phase line.

The 35,45,150 are a new design and just amazing. Sharp corner to corner wide open and moire often enough even on the 100MP sensor.

The 80/100 are older designs and many of the none blue ring and still some with the blue ring are melons, but there are copies which are as good as the new designs.

So sure I cannot say exactly what will happen with 200/300MP, but I'm pretty sure the lenses I wrote are fine.

It's the same with the GFX. I'm pretty sure all lenses will be more then fine on a 100MP sensor.


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Perhaps you didn't see Fuji's statement that the GFX lenses are designed to resolve 100MP sensors. I don't recall any statements from Phase that their lenses will resolve 150MP sensors, never mind 300-400 MP sensors. Knowing that the most important thing to these companies is selling you new super expensive gear by creating FUD,  I can almost guarantee that Phase will be ready to sell you the new line of Platinum Ring lenses. And you will buy them. [G]

[Steve Hendrix]

How would you know? Have you tried them with 200-300MP sensors? From what I have seen with the Hasselblad HC lenses compared to the X1D lenses and the Fuji GFX lenses, the medium format lenses designed most recently are a step up above the older medium format lenses. Some of the Phase lenses are new designs; some are old designs.

Perhaps you didn't see Fuji's statement that the GFX lenses are designed to resolve 100MP sensors. I don't recall any statements from Phase that their lenses will resolve 150MP sensors, never mind 300-400 MP sensors. Knowing that the most important thing to these companies is selling you new super expensive gear by creating FUD,  I can almost guarantee that Phase will be ready to sell you the new line of Platinum Ring lenses. And you will buy them. [G]

Come on now, Howard, be fair.

What is an "old" lens?

With the exception of the 28mm/4.5 and the 80mm/2.8, all the Schneider lenses for the Phase One system were developed within the past 6 years:

2009 - SK 80mm/2.8 AF LS
2011 - SK 55mm/2.8 AF LS
2011 - SK 110mm/2.8 AF LS
2011 - SK 75mm-150mm/4.0-5.6 AF LS
2012 - SK 240mm/4.5 AF LS
2014 - SK 40mm-80mm/4.0-5.6 AF LS
2015 - SK 35mm/3.5 AF LS
2016 - SK 45mm/3.5 AF LS
2016 - SK 120mm/4 AF LS Macro
2016 - SK 150mm/2.8 AF LS


Check the attachment for Phase One's statement on resolving more than 100 megapixels.


Steve Hendrix/CI

[hubell]

Come on now, Howard, be fair.

What is an "old" lens?

With the exception of the 28mm/4.5 and the 80mm/2.8, all the Schneider lenses for the Phase One system were developed within the past 6 years:

2009 - SK 80mm/2.8 AF LS
2011 - SK 55mm/2.8 AF LS
2011 - SK 110mm/2.8 AF LS
2011 - SK 75mm-150mm/4.0-5.6 AF LS
2012 - SK 240mm/4.5 AF LS
2014 - SK 40mm-80mm/4.0-5.6 AF LS
2015 - SK 35mm/3.5 AF LS
2016 - SK 45mm/3.5 AF LS
2016 - SK 120mm/4 AF LS Macro
2016 - SK 150mm/2.8 AF LS


Check the attachment for Phase One's statement on resolving more than 100 megapixels.


Steve Hendrix/CI

I am not questioning whether those lenses are excellent, just whether they are capable of resolving 150MP or 200MP-300MP. Who knows? Are they the best that a lens manufacturer is capable of producing today? Are they even as good as the Fuji GFX or the XCD lenses? Has anyone tested them against the GFX or XCD lenses using the same 50mp sensor? I suspect that DT or CI has done it. It would be interesting to see some comparisons.

[Steve Hendrix]

I am not questioning whether those lenses are excellent, just whether they are capable of resolving 150MP or 200MP-300MP. Who knows? Are they the best that a lens manufacturer is capable of producing today? Are they even as good as the Fuji GFX or the XCD lenses? Has anyone tested them against the GFX or XCD lenses using the same 50mp sensor? I suspect that DT or CI has done it. It would be interesting to see some comparisons.

Right, and you asked if Phase had ever implied their lenses were capable of resolving past 100mp, and so that was my answer to you, yes they have (noted via my attachment). And wouldn't it be kind of backward for them to manufacture numerous lenses less than 18-24 months before releasing products with higher pixel counts (and smaller pixels) if the lenses were incapable of handling the additional pixels/smaller pixel sizes? That seems almost silly to wonder about.

You also stated the Phase One lens lineup was comprised of new and old designs. And that was also my answer to you. There are very few newly developed lenses even older than 3-4 years, and even the older ones are less than 6-7 years, hence my question - What is an old lens?

Are they as good as the GFX or HCD lenses? Or how about, are the GFX or HCD lenses as good as the P1 Schneider lenses? 

The basis for what you're conveying is that a company like Phase One would not take into account continuing advances in pixel count and pixel size when developing expensive new lenses, but Fuji or Hasselblad would. I don't agree with that at all, and pretty sure I have a whole lens lineup as evidence.


Steve Hendrix/CI

[hubell]

Right, and you asked if Phase had ever implied their lenses were capable of resolving past 100mp, and so that was my answer to you, yes they have (noted via my attachment). And wouldn't it be kind of backward for them to manufacture numerous lenses less than 18-24 months before releasing products with higher pixel counts (and smaller pixels) if the lenses were incapable of handling the additional pixels/smaller pixel sizes? That seems almost silly to wonder about.

You also stated the Phase One lens lineup was comprised of new and old designs. And that was also my answer to you. There are very few newly developed lenses even older than 3-4 years, and even the older ones are less than 6-7 years, hence my question - What is an old lens?

Are they as good as the GFX or HCD lenses? Or how about, are the GFX or HCD lenses as good as the P1 Schneider lenses? 

The basis for what you're conveying is that a company like Phase One would not take into account continuing advances in pixel count and pixel size when developing expensive new lenses, but Fuji or Hasselblad would. I don't agree with that at all, and pretty sure I have a whole lens lineup as evidence.


Steve Hendrix/CI

I would love to see some raw files of subjects shot side by side with the three cameras. I have to believe this has been done.

[Steve Hendrix]

I would love to see some raw files of subjects shot side by side with the three cameras. I have to believe this has been done.

Yes, might be interesting. There are definitely a number of users who own both the Phase One XF system and a Fuji GFX or Hasselblad X1D, so perhaps someone will take the time to do some comparing. I'm pretty sure the lenses from all the discussed systems will fare excellently in comparison with each other.


Steve Hendrix/CI

[hubell]

Right, and you asked if Phase had ever implied their lenses were capable of resolving past 100mp, and so that was my answer to you, yes they have (noted via my attachment). And wouldn't it be kind of backward for them to manufacture numerous lenses less than 18-24 months before releasing products with higher pixel counts (and smaller pixels) if the lenses were incapable of handling the additional pixels/smaller pixel sizes? That seems almost silly to wonder about.

Steve Hendrix/CI

Ok, I read the item you included. It says the lenses are designed for 100MP "and beyond."  Typical advertising spin that makes you think it says something significant, but obviously leaves a lot to the imagination. 25MP beyond? 50MP beyond? 100? 200? My point was, and still, is that I have not seen any credible analysis of the point at which the currently offered MF lenses by Phase or anyone else will still outresolve a 200 or 300MP sensor, which doesn't even exist today. I would think that a person who designs high end camera lenses for a living could shed some light on this, but AFAIK, nobody who fits that bill has chimed in here.

[Steve Hendrix]

Ok, I read the item you included. It says the lenses are designed for 100MP "and beyond."  Typical advertising spin that makes you think it says something significant, but obviously leaves a lot to the imagination. 25MP beyond? 50MP beyond? 100? 200? My point was, and still, is that I have not seen any credible analysis of the point at which the currently offered MF lenses by Phase or anyone else will still outresolve a 200 or 300MP sensor, which doesn't even exist today. I would think that a person who designs high end camera lenses for a living could shed some light on this, but AFAIK, nobody who fits that bill has chimed in here.

Yes, it does leave something to the imagination. Nonetheless, there is a statement that beyond 100mp is in the realm of the lens lineup. That doesn't prove anything, but it certainly shows confidence on their part. But this is starting to feel a little bit like a pointless point. As you say, there are no 200/300 megapixel products available today. So who knows?

I'm pretty sure that all of the fore-mentioned industry players (Phase One-Hasselblad-Fuji) will have optimal lens options with future higher resolution capture products. Will the existing lenses for these players suffice? Quite possibly, but we may have to wait and see. My sense is at least most of them will. And every manufacturer in recent years - has added improved lenses out of necessity as pixel counts increase and pixel sizes decrease. It is by now a standard practice, so 5-7 years from now, if we're at 300mp and whatever pixel size that is, if some of the older designs are not up to the task for Fuji or Hasselblad or Phase One, I'm sure they'll fill in newer versions as needed. This is an industry issue, not a Phase One specific issue.


Steve Hendrix/CI