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Author Topic: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models  (Read 2092 times)

EinstStein

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Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« on: July 24, 2017, 10:12:43 AM »

For examples, Nikon 810, Canon 1D, Leica SL, none have flip or tilt LCD, but the lower end of each brand do.
Why?

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Otto Phocus

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2017, 11:16:50 AM »

Perhaps because the individual companies believe that a tilt/flip screen is more appropriate for certain models.

Marketing is all about trade-offs.  If you appeal to one demographic, you risk pushing another demographic away.  A most delicate balancing act and sometimes companies get it wrong.
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I shoot with a Camera Obscura with an optical device attached that refracts and transmits light.

EinstStein

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2017, 02:00:16 PM »

Perhaps because the individual companies believe that a tilt/flip screen is more appropriate for certain models.

Marketing is all about trade-offs.  If you appeal to one demographic, you risk pushing another demographic away.  A most delicate balancing act and sometimes companies get it wrong.

You mean, you dont know either?
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stever

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2017, 02:41:45 PM »

as handy as it can be, I still view it as a weak point of construction (dangly bit) in a camera that will receive hard use including exposure to moisture
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EinstStein

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2017, 06:42:36 PM »

as handy as it can be, I still view it as a weak point of construction (dangly bit) in a camera that will receive hard use including exposure to moisture

For people have similar concerns, you don't have to use it. Just keep it unopened. Would it still be a problem?
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rdonson

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2017, 08:23:40 PM »

I can't speak or even guess why camera companies do everything that they do especially with regards to flip/tilt LCDs.  Perhaps their market research says that the people who buy higher end DSLRs don't care about the LCDs while other customer segments do.

What I do know is that after shooting higher end Canon DSLRs for well over a decade I was very happy to get my Fuji X-T1 and then my X-T2.  I just love the feature sets of these 2 mirrorless cameras as compared to the Canons I own.  It's nice to no longer lay on the ground to get low angle shots.
   
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Regards,
Ron

graeme

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2017, 08:54:56 PM »

as handy as it can be, I still view it as a weak point of construction (dangly bit) in a camera that will receive hard use including exposure to moisture

Have been using a 60D with flip out screen since March 2011, no problems so far. I wouldn't say I give the camera 'hard use' but I don't treat it with kid gloves either.
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BJL

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 09:24:22 PM »

Olympus is one of the few companies to buck this idea that an articulated screen is a weak point in high end cameras—I love the ability to shoot some subjects (like children) from waist level, hands on belly and screen tilted up, and would like even more a screen that can be flipped to face inwards so as to protect it in rough situations, as with the OMD EM1 Mk2.
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Farmer

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 11:02:03 PM »

An inward flip is a great idea.  I like the flip screen on my A7rii, but having even more options for it would be great.
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Phil Brown

Jim Kasson

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2017, 11:17:24 PM »

For examples, Nikon 810, Canon 1D, Leica SL, none have flip or tilt LCD, but the lower end of each brand do.
Why?

Low end? Not always: GFX, a7RII, a9.

Jim

EinstStein

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2017, 12:31:29 AM »

Low end? Not always: GFX, a7RII, a9.

Jim

I said normally, and I meant the lower end models of Nikon, Canon, and Leica.
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Rob C

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2017, 04:02:01 AM »

I've never used such screens, but do appreciate they could be very useful at times - rare times for me.

I see two potential problems with implementing them on higher grade equipment:

a. I can't see anybody with real photographic experience, working off-tipod, who'd welcome using a rear screen to frame and/or focus; reducing a camera to the norms of a cellphone seems absurd, not a particularly helpful "advance";

b. as somebody mentioned, all that articulation can not avoid putting wear and flexing onto components. That's never a good idea. And as pro cameras are supposed to be there to get a lot of heavy use, and to be dependable, any structural weakness won't market well.

As ever, there are bound to be exceptions. But again, for me, no thanks; the few missed shots don't outweight the greater dependabilty question. I mean, Elliott still got his pooch shots, didn't he?

Rob

pegelli

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2017, 04:55:09 AM »

I have and use cameras without (my older DSLR's) and with (my newer mirrorless cameras) a movable LCD

A couple of random observations:
- when I didn't have a movable LCD camera yet I didn't miss it
- a movable LCD comes in handy shooting from weird positions, around a corner or from hip level, so now I sometimes miss it when using cameras which don't have it
- I've never had a movable LCD fail yet (touch wood)

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pieter, aka pegelli

Otto Phocus

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2017, 06:15:09 AM »

You mean, you dont know either?

No, what I wrote was that it was a decision by the camera manufacturer.  Since there is no engineering reason why cameras can not be equipped with a tilt screen, it must be a design decision on the part of the manufacturer.  Marketing influences design, in some cases, to a greater extent than engineering. 

One can agree or disagree with marketing decisions and as I wrote, sometimes marketing makes wrong decisions.  The good news is that marketing decisions can change.  If the manufacturer feels that putting a tilt screen on specific models will not drive existing customers away and will attract new customers to that model, we will start seeing tilt screens on these models.
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I shoot with a Camera Obscura with an optical device attached that refracts and transmits light.

BJL

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Why flip/tilt LCD normally not in higher end _DSLR_ models
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2017, 10:19:49 AM »

Low end? Not always: GFX, a7RII, a9.
Along with Olympus and Panasonic offering tilt/flip screens on every recent MFT model—including their respective top-of-the-line OMD EM1 Mk II and GH5 models—it seems that it is mostly high-end DSLRs that stay with fixed rear screens, while many high-end mirrorless cameras have tilt-able or fully articulated screens. (Hence the new title.)

Maybe the difference is in part because mirrorless cameras are always used in Live View mode, and so their users are more likely to embrace the option of sometimes using the rear screen to shoot with the camera held above or below eye-level. (Or even held out to one side and turned to the left or right, which I have done when a want the camera on the other side of a safety rail.)
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Herbc

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally not in higher end _DSLR_ models
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2017, 10:27:10 AM »

Along with Olympus and Panasonic offering tilt/flip screens on every recent MFT model—including their respective top-of-the-line OMD EM1 Mk II and GH5 models—it seems that it is mostly high-end DSLRs that stay with fixed rear screens, while many high-end mirrorless cameras have tilt-able or fully articulated screens. (Hence the new title.)

Maybe the difference is in part because mirrorless cameras are always used in Live View mode, and so their users are more likely to embrace the option of sometimes using the rear screen to shoot with the camera held above or below eye-level. (Or even held out to one side and turned to the left or right, which I have done when a want the camera on the other side of a safety rail.)
Amen:

When I was shooting Large format, one accessory I really used was a reflex viewer.  Needless to say, the flip screens are a godsend to us geezers who have trouble with getting down on the ground for a decent shot.  I just bought a small tripod so I can shoot macros from ground level, would not even attempt it without the flip screen.
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GrahamBy

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2017, 12:15:01 PM »

Why don't Canon and Nikon have IBIS in their DSLR's?

Because they sell without it, and they get to charge more for lenses with IS. And they want to hold something back to add to the next model to persuade people to upgrade, and to gradually upgrade their shorter lenses to IS.

Pentax has a pivoting screen on the K1. Sony A9 etc already mentioned. Over the next few models, I predict there will be more pivoting screens and more IBIS (since the Tamron and Sigma IS in their lenses now).

It would be nice to have a pivoting screen to allow discreet waist-level street shooting... but not so much that I'm going to rush out and buy a Pentax KP.
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BJL

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Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models — & all EVF bodes
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2017, 03:03:27 PM »

Why don't Canon and Nikon have IBIS in their DSLR's?
Maybe because they developed in-lens stabilization back in the film era, when in-lens was the only way to do it. A few other possible factors are that with SLRs, in-lens stabilization also has the arguable advantage of stabilizing the image in the OVF, and it used to be better with video, though modern IBIS handles video stabilization just fine. So in large part, "the inertia of incumbency", as with many things that Canon and Nikon do in a more "traditional" way than almost everyone else.

Pentax has a pivoting screen on the K1. Sony A9 etc already mentioned. . . .
Yes, my proposed DSLR vs mirrorless divide breaks down with Pentax also putting a tilt-able screen in its top-end DSLR model, and Pentax also has IBIS in its DSLRs. So the "incumbent inertia" argument gets stronger.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 03:09:13 PM by BJL »
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FabienP

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2017, 06:33:21 PM »

What about getting rid of the LCD screen altogether and replacing it with a flip/tilt EVF, such as the Canon EVF-DC1? This is very close to waist level shooting for the classic Hasselblad fans out there. Having now experienced EVFs on every camera I regularly take with me, I find the LCD screen so useless in bright light... And with such a low resolution compared to the EVF!

The negative aspect that I see (besides the higher power draw compared to LCD) is that we would look even sillier when chimping using the EVF! Every time I chimp looking through the EVF, people think that I might be about to take a photo and start taking evasing maneuvers to avoid being in the frame! ;D

Cheers,

Fabien
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Why flip/tilt LCD normally only in lower end models
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2017, 07:13:50 PM »

What about getting rid of the LCD screen altogether and replacing it with a flip/tilt EVF, such as the Canon EVF-DC1? This is very close to waist level shooting for the classic Hasselblad fans out there. Having now experienced EVFs on every camera I regularly take with me, I find the LCD screen so useless in bright light... And with such a low resolution compared to the EVF!

I am lucky enough to own a camera, the Fuji GFX, with full articulation of the EVF (through the accessory EVF holder). Even with that, there are many times when I prefer to use the articulated LCD panel at least at some points in the capture process. Having a EVF/LCD/Auto switch on the finder makes dealing with that easy, as does the ability to flip the finder out of the way when you don't want to trigger the eye sensor and don't want to bother with the switch.

For example, I find that, for critical focusing, using a loupe on the LCD is better than looking through the EVF. When working with a person in the studio, it's nice to be able to make better eye contact and just glance at the LCD to make sure the framing is still good. There are many other similar situations.

Jim
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