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Author Topic: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera  (Read 9435 times)

BJL

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #60 on: July 19, 2017, 09:52:10 AM »

I don't see *any* advantages to a new APS-C system from Nikon -- I certainly wouldn't buy one. It doesn't have the weight advantages of the V system or the m4/3 systems, nor does it offer the quality of the FF or Fuji MF systems, so exactly what would be the point?
John,
    Don't take this wrong, but I call this familiar reasoning "the extremist argument"—that the only good options are at one extreme or the other, where one attribute is optimised (size, weight and convenience vs image quality). Instead, a lot of customers reject those extremes because they are also the worst in some other attributes, and go for an intermediate balance.

Though I think Nikon could produce a great system based on 4/3" or even maybe by working harder on 1", I see the appeal of better compatibility with DX lenses already owned, and sensors that it is also acquiring for DX SLRs.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2017, 10:21:49 PM »

The only case where Nikon could produce an APS-C mirrorless in my book would be along with a 33x44mm sensor based MF camera, similarly to Fuji.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Chairman Bill

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2017, 04:58:41 AM »

I just don't see why Nikon would want to go with a 1" or 4/3 sensor. They seem to have dropped the 1" line, so why go with another inferior sensor like a 4/3? They could probably get away with an APS-C, but they need to go with FF or larger.

scooby70

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2017, 05:56:23 AM »

I just don't see why Nikon would want to go with a 1" or 4/3 sensor. They seem to have dropped the 1" line, so why go with another inferior sensor like a 4/3? They could probably get away with an APS-C, but they need to go with FF or larger.

I do wish we could get away from language like this.

I've been a MFT user since pretty much day one and I could be dismissed as having a vested interest but trust me on this... I'm mostly format and brand agnostic :D

Looking back at my 35mm film days I think that MFT is superior in every way. Maybe it's just me but I do wish that people could stay away from statements like "inferior" and if they want to point our weaknesses or indeed strengths why not be a little more specific?

MFT lacks a touch of DR when compared to the best modern "FF" systems, the very high ISO performance isn't so good and you can't print as large or crop as much and retain the quality as you can with a larger format. Isn't that better than just saying "inferior"? Many people wouldn't even see the deficiencies :D
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Chairman Bill

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2017, 01:35:38 PM »

Less DR, noisier etc., but 'inferior' isn't the right word? I'll have a word with the OED & see if they do something about that.

Telecaster

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #65 on: July 20, 2017, 05:15:01 PM »

Less DR, noisier etc., but 'inferior' isn't the right word?

"Inferior" as you're using it is clearly intended to be derogatory.

-Dave-
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #66 on: July 20, 2017, 05:37:56 PM »

"Inferior" as you're using it is clearly intended to be derogatory.

And it should be frankly speaking. Writing that 4:3 sensors are inferior is only stating an obvious fact. That doesn't mean it isn't possible to capture amazing images with these cameras.

What is abnormal here isn't to call a cat a cat, is for cat owners to interpret their cat not being called a dog as an insult to their ability to be a great cat.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 12:44:16 AM by BernardLanguillier »
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BJL

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #67 on: July 20, 2017, 07:23:33 PM »

I thing that the objection to the phrase "inferior sensor" should be easy to understand by any user of 35mm film who heard trash-talk from medium format snobs about 35mm being inferior.

One problem is ignoring the fact that higher resolution (lines per mm) is a very valuable attribute of sensors for many photographers, increasing the amount of telephoto reach and macro detail that can be got from lenses of a given size and focal length. And unlike the case with film, larger format sensors persist in being "inferior in resolution", requiring a bulkier kit in some situations. The resolution ratio between ILC formats has been fairly steady ever since the first 11 and 14 MP 36x24mm format DSLRs arrived in 2003, with all formats roughly doubling their resolution (quadrupling pixel count).

Another humble sensor attribute is cost: since we are discussing the commercial wisdom of various format choices that Nikon might make, this is a legitimate factor is judging the "inferiority" of one sensor size over over another. Given that the cheapest 36x24mm format body costs about three times as much as the cheapest "APS-C" body (not to mention 44x33mm format pricing) there is clear trend of larger sensors being "inferior in cost".

Related is the persistent imbalance of looking at selected sensor characteristics (but not all: see above!) in isolation when assessing a format choice. The argument seems to be that smaller sensors are inherently inferior, so a smaller format is inherently inferior, and therefore for Nikon to choose a smaller format for its next mirrorless system would be an inherently inferior decision—ignoring any factors that weigh in favor of a smaller format for a great many potential customers. Stated this baldly and absolutely, this is an obvious fallacy; else medium format would have trounced 35mm in film, and would be doing so again in digital, while 36x24mm digital would be dominating the market over smaller ILC formats, and so on.
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BJL

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2017, 07:26:21 PM »

Less DR, noisier etc., but 'inferior' isn't the right word?
What about "higher resolution" (lp/mm), as mentioned in my more long-winded post? It matters to some of us!
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John Camp

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2017, 01:31:41 AM »

I just don't see why Nikon would want to go with a 1" or 4/3 sensor. They seem to have dropped the 1" line, so why go with another inferior sensor like a 4/3? They could probably get away with an APS-C, but they need to go with FF or larger.

As I mentioned in my post above, I would have greatly preferred my current m4/3 system to my FF Nikon system because reproduction in most online and newspaper media can't take advantage of FF quality, while, at the same time, some photographers can really, really use the lighter weights of m4/3. There are some, but really very few uses, for which m4/3 isn't as good at FF. And there are some uses for which M4/3 has great advantages over FF. All of that is tied to the sensor; saying one sensor is inferior to another is like saying a pickup truck is inferior to a 5.0 Mustang...but for what?
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John Camp

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2017, 01:35:59 AM »


Nikon should be announcing something this month, and I think the next year + early 2018 are going to reveal alot of cool offerings from multiple manufacturers.

I hope you're right. There's been a fairly length pause in digital camera development, which I think the manufacturers need to sort of catch their breath and figure out where to go next, but it feels like that is ending. Sony has made some interesting products but now needs to consolidate and create a really professional system, if it plans to do that; and I think Nikon needs to lead the way out. Canon...I don't know what Canon does. There are some disadvantages to being part of a large company that makes most of its money doing other things...
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2017, 07:05:29 AM »

And there are some uses for which M4/3 has great advantages over FF. All of that is tied to the sensor; saying one sensor is inferior to another is like saying a pickup truck is inferior to a 5.0 Mustang...but for what?
It all comes down to choosing the right tool for the right job.  My principal interest right now is finding a good lightweight mirrorless set up for travel.  Weight matters for those of us who are no longer on the youth side.  I ended up not taking my Nikon on our trip to London and Ireland because of the weight.  Since we had a wedding to attend in London I had to take more clothes than I normally would for a Euro holiday.  Nikon body + 24-120 f4 zoom comes in at 1600g whereas a Sony a6500 + Tessar 16-70 f4 weighs just over 700g.  This is a huge difference when one is in transit as much as we were during this trip.  If the new Nikon comes in at the same weight as their DSLRs, I'm not interested (despite having lots of good Nikon lenses).
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BJL

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2017, 08:05:02 AM »

. . . saying one sensor is inferior to another is like saying a pickup truck is inferior to a 5.0 Mustang...but for what?
Yes, though I have been using almost the opposite analogy: some people say that everyone is better off with a full-sized pickup, while a more maneuverable and fuel-efficient compact car serves my purposes better.
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scooby70

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2017, 08:26:09 AM »

Less DR, noisier etc., but 'inferior' isn't the right word? I'll have a word with the OED & see if they do something about that.

I tend to dislike sweeping unsupported generalities. Yes, the bigger the sensor the better may be true in some circumstances but I still think it's worthwhile thinking about what those circumstances may be and if they're real world or not and day to day or not and then there's the question of if the smaller system can ever be superior. As we're using that sort of language.

Coming from film and going though APS-C digital with a Canon 300D, 10D and 20D (because there were no FF digital cameras back then and then going "FF" with a Canon 5D and on to MFT with Panasonic G1, GX7 and GX80 and to FF again with an A7 I've been able to see the changes with the various bodies and the effect on image quality and IMO a lot of people a lot of the time will have a hard time telling what gear was used for what picture.

There are a lot of people on line who insist that they must have gear that'll track a gnats you know whats at midnight in a thunderstorm at ISO 1 million and they'll say that they need to be able to pixel peep the results at 400% and print 6m wide gallery quality prints but I don't know how realistic the extreme needs we see on line are. My own needs are a little more forgiving and I find that even the inferior MFT is good enough for a whole image at what used to be thought of as very high ISO and good enough for 100% crops at more normal ISO's.

I just think that a little less hyperbole and a little more considered and moderated opinion together with supporting reasoning and detail might be a good thing.
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Telecaster

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2017, 05:12:23 PM »

And it should be frankly speaking. Writing that 4:3 sensors are inferior is only stating an obvious fact.

"Inferior" for what purposes? If sheer technical image quality is your overriding concern, then yes. But dig this: sheer technical image quality isn't everyone's overriding concern. Not even close to it. It certainly isn't mine. More precise language is needed to avoid coming across as a snob or status posturer.

-Dave-
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Chairman Bill

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2017, 07:23:18 PM »

"Inferior" as you're using it is clearly intended to be derogatory.

-Dave-

If I intended to be derogatory I'd have used different words. I meant precisely what I said

Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2017, 12:04:36 PM »

Really strange to me....
After shooting for over 20 years, and going from Canon to Nikon and then Canon again, and now Canon and Sony, I thought for sure for the 100th anniversary Nikon would do something radical with the D850, yet, really nothing that that makes me want to jump out anywhere.
The D810e was a close one that I almost took a plunge, but not good timing for me. I love both systems, and love Canon service more, but after a while you want some excuse to get excited again. Sadly, its just not there from Nikon...
Maybe Fuji GFX, or the like is all I see in my VF ? :-)
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2017, 09:45:36 PM »

After shooting for over 20 years, and going from Canon to Nikon and then Canon again, and now Canon and Sony, I thought for sure for the 100th anniversary Nikon would do something radical with the D850, yet, really nothing that that makes me want to jump out anywhere.
The D810e was a close one that I almost took a plunge, but not good timing for me. I love both systems, and love Canon service more, but after a while you want some excuse to get excited again. Sadly, its just not there from Nikon...

The D850 is the ultimate DSLR, the end of a line. It is miles ahead of anything Canon has to offer and combines the best AF there is (the 3D AF mode is pretty much magical), excellent resolution, great speed, the best viewfinder, great usability (tilt screen),.... but I do agree with you that it isn't exciting.

This being said, I'll add one to my line up and will take great images with it until something with better abilities shows up.

As a system, in combination with lenses such as the 19mm T/S, 28mm f1.4, 105mm f1.4, 70-200 f2.8E,... and the only pro spec 24-70 f2.8 that is both stabilized and rugged. it is really hard to beat. Not only do these lenses deliver best in class detail and overall technical excellence, the images captured with these have a look that is to die for.

Now, the real question is... what is exciting. I thought the GFX and X1D would excite me... played with both. Nice camera but I didn't feel anything special. My H6D-100c offer amazing image quality, but can I honnestly say it excites me? No...

A Sony a9r perhaps may, but I never felt any vibe using the a7rII, although I admit it is a great technological achievement.

Is the D850 reponsible for our lack of excitement, or is it just that we have grown out of photographic equipment?

I am still excited by photography, sweet light, a magic moment. But by cameras? Not sure I'll still be.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 09:51:00 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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RichDesmond

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #78 on: August 23, 2017, 10:00:45 PM »

...I am still excited by photography, sweet light, a magic moment. But by cameras? Not sure I'll still be.

Cheers,
Bernard

And I'd make the case that that's how it ought to be. The camera can go back to being just a tool, as it was in the pre-autofocus film days. Much of the gear/spec debate that goes on in photo forums is just silliness.
My personal standard is that as soon as the phase "shot noise" makes an appearance in a thread it ceases to have any photographic value. :)
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Rob C

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #79 on: September 08, 2017, 06:05:20 AM »

It could be 36x24mm format instead, but I am guessing on the more mainstream 24x16mm because:
(a) It is a far larger market sector.
(b) First-time ILC camera buyers are the most likely to go for a new system with an all-new lens line-up, which initially will not have such a wide range, and these first-timers mostly choose the smaller, less expensive formats.
(c) The 36x24mm format user-base has a higher proportion of OVF-clinging curmudgeons  :)

I note the smiley!

As mentioned before, the only thing wrong with contemporary slr cameras - the dslr variety, is that they have lousy screens often lacking both 100% coverage and the good old split-image device that made manual focussing not a problem at all.

Through failing eyesight I have learned to value af; however, where not in any particular hurry, I still enjoy the physical and visual pleasure of running through focus fields as I operate the focussing ring. Especially so with longer lenses. Rapid af takes that optical buzz clean away.

There's more pleasure in making pictures than meets the post-exposure eye.

Rob
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