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Author Topic: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera  (Read 2658 times)

JKoerner007

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2017, 10:57:34 PM »

I simply do not see the majority of DSLR buyers (who buy entry to mid-level DSLRs) fidgeting with adapters and the like. The latter are more the purview of enthusiasts. As for pros, they make a small part of the market, but they to do not like or wish to fumble with adapters.
It is mostly enthusiasts that enjoy playing around with such stuff. For the rest of users, they just want to take the shot as simple as possible.

That's what Sony people have to do: fiddle with adapters, taking them off for Sony glass, and putting them on again for other brands.

It would be different with Nikon, because they don't need to panhandle to other companies for "help" in the glass department. Nikon already has a full complement of glass.

A user of a new Nikon mirrorless would either (a) buy one adapter ... and keep it on his mirrorless, to allow for the existing F-mount lenses ... or (b) I can envision a Nikon mirrorless camera having  a built-in mount adapter.

Imagine a thinner mirrorless camera, with only the mount-area thick enough to deal with the flange issue. The mirrorless camera would have the best of both worlds: thinner/lighter overall ... and yet with the best lens portfolio available. The raised mount area would also create its own unique 'look' to boot ...

Anyway, just thinking out loud, but Nikon has the potential to offer totally different solutions than what Sony's lens limitations forces them to offer.

Kiwi Paul

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2017, 01:46:07 AM »

That's what Sony people have to do: fiddle with adapters, taking them off for Sony glass, and putting them on again for other brands.

It would be different with Nikon, because they don't need to panhandle to other companies for "help" in the glass department. Nikon already has a full complement of glass.

A user of a new Nikon mirrorless would either (a) buy one adapter ... and keep it on his mirrorless, to allow for the existing F-mount lenses ... or (b) I can envision a Nikon mirrorless camera having  a built-in mount adapter.

Imagine a thinner mirrorless camera, with only the mount-area thick enough to deal with the flange issue. The mirrorless camera would have the best of both worlds: thinner/lighter overall ... and yet with the best lens portfolio available. The raised mount area would also create its own unique 'look' to boot ...

Anyway, just thinking out loud, but Nikon has the potential to offer totally different solutions than what Sony's lens limitations forces them to offer.

I don't think "fiddling with adapters" is really the issue you appear to be trying to make it out to be. I have the A7R2 + a full range of Sony E mount primes and zooms and couldn't be happier. I tried several Canon lenses when I initially got the camera and bought one adapter and left it on the lens, if I wanted to change lenses I removed the Canon lens including the adapter and put the next lens on, if the next lens was a native mount lens then it was just like changing lenses normally, if the next lens was another Canon then I leave the adapter on the camera and disconnect the lens from the adapter, no issue.
In the end I bought all native mount (E mount lenses) as I preferred them for my purpose.
I see the Sony E mount with the ability to be able to use any lens from the Canon and or Nikon range via an adapter an advantage adding versatility to the E series bodies.
As far as size goes the A7xx/ A9 series of cameras is just perfect for me, large enough to be comfortable to use but small enough to still be a fairly compact body.
The native E system lens lineup is growing all the time, I remember a few years ago when m43 was only a few years old and folk were complaining of the lack of lenses, look at that system now....
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Chairman Bill

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2017, 03:48:47 AM »

Imagine a thinner mirrorless camera, with only the mount-area thick enough to deal with the flange issue.

Precisely. There is no need for new lenses or adapters. As I said previously, all Nikon have to do is make the camera a little deeper front to back than would be necessary with a new range of lenses, and its current range will be fine. They could even just enlarge the mount area & incorporate aperture control around the throat, so that G lenses effectively have an aperture ring for that 'retro' feel.

mecrox

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2017, 05:03:50 AM »

Precisely. There is no need for new lenses or adapters. As I said previously, all Nikon have to do is make the camera a little deeper front to back than would be necessary with a new range of lenses, and its current range will be fine. They could even just enlarge the mount area & incorporate aperture control around the throat, so that G lenses effectively have an aperture ring for that 'retro' feel.

I may be quite wrong, but my impression has been that to get the best from modern mirrorless one really needs lenses designed for it. This has to do with the way contrast detect AF works off the sensor. A lens does best when the key focal group inside the lens is light in weight and so can be moved very fast. Traditional DSLR lenses with heavier focal groups aren't so good at this. In which case, starting over with a new design is best. But maybe this is nonsense?? I see over on "TOP" that the veteran analyst Eamon Hickey thinks Nikon will produce both new mount and F mount mirrorless cameras in time. Anyway, there's probably no free lunch here and mirrorless cameras aren't some miracle cure even though they may be great to have, imho.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 06:39:51 AM by mecrox »
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scyth

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2017, 08:41:58 AM »

That's what Sony people have to do: fiddle with adapters, taking them off for Sony glass, and putting them on again for other brands.

one can only wonder where did a nikon dSLR user get that idea ? adapter stays on the lens and becomes a just part of it... Sigma MC-11 was once on sale for ~$160 - so people w/ many needs purchased a bunch... I simply have adapters on each non E-mount lens...
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hogloff

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2017, 10:40:20 AM »

one can only wonder where did a nikon dSLR user get that idea ? adapter stays on the lens and becomes a just part of it... Sigma MC-11 was once on sale for ~$160 - so people w/ many needs purchased a bunch... I simply have adapters on each non E-mount lens...

I have zero issues using my Canon mount Zeiss lens on my A7R. Most people that complain do not actually use the gear...they just parrot what they read.
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BJL

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Re: Nikon president comments ... lens size and design flexibility
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2017, 11:29:47 AM »

. . . all Nikon have to do is make the camera a little deeper front to back than would be necessary with a new range of lenses, and its current range will be fine. They could even just enlarge the mount area & incorporate aperture control around the throat, so that G lenses effectively have an aperture ring for that 'retro' feel.
I agree that body design is not much of an issue, especially for 36x24mm format, where Sony's body down-sizing seems overdone. And as @JKoerner007 says, when using big lenses like telephotos, smaller bodies are no advantage (though I do not see them as a disadvantage either, so long as the grip is deep enough.)

Lens design is instead the advantage of not having the lens mount so far from the sensor, in particular for anything offering wide-angle coverage, including the #1 lens in most kits: a standard zoom.

Here is the comparison of two 12-60/2.8-4 standard zooms for 4/3" format: the Olympus in SLR mount and Panasonic on MFT mount (with in-lens IS added): https://www.dpreview.com/products/compare/side-by-side?products=olympus_12-60_2p8-4&products=panasonic_leica_dg_12-60_2p8-4p0_asph
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JKoerner007

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2017, 08:09:24 PM »

I don't think "fiddling with adapters" is really the issue you appear to be trying to make it out to be. I have the A7R2 + a full range of Sony E mount primes and zooms and couldn't be happier. I tried several Canon lenses when I initially got the camera and bought one adapter and left it on the lens, if I wanted to change lenses I removed the Canon lens including the adapter and put the next lens on, if the next lens was a native mount lens then it was just like changing lenses normally, if the next lens was another Canon then I leave the adapter on the camera and disconnect the lens from the adapter, no issue.
In the end I bought all native mount (E mount lenses) as I preferred them for my purpose.
I see the Sony E mount with the ability to be able to use any lens from the Canon and or Nikon range via an adapter an advantage adding versatility to the E series bodies.
As far as size goes the A7xx/ A9 series of cameras is just perfect for me, large enough to be comfortable to use but small enough to still be a fairly compact body.
The native E system lens lineup is growing all the time, I remember a few years ago when m43 was only a few years old and folk were complaining of the lack of lenses, look at that system now....

Makes sense. The same way I keep my 2xTC on my 300mm.

However, what this doesn't address is the fact AF is no good with 3rd party adapters trying to adapt Canon lenses to Sony bodies.
(It's a non-issue with MF lenses, but it's a big issue for very expensive super-telephotos suddenly losing their AF ability.)

If Nikon directly made the lens, the camera, and the adapter (either external or internal to the camera), AF ought to be much better than what a hodgepodge of unrelated gear pieced together.

Similarly, my 300mm with 2xTC III, mounted to my Nikon camera, offers very responsive AF.

However, if I tried to implement a 3rd party adapter, hooking a non-Nikon lens, to my Nikon camera, it probably wouldn't work as well.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 08:17:13 PM by JKoerner007 »
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JKoerner007

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2017, 08:12:08 PM »

Precisely. There is no need for new lenses or adapters. As I said previously, all Nikon have to do is make the camera a little deeper front to back than would be necessary with a new range of lenses, and its current range will be fine. They could even just enlarge the mount area & incorporate aperture control around the throat, so that G lenses effectively have an aperture ring for that 'retro' feel.

We agree.

I am thinking, however, that any camera-built adapter will probably only mount to E lenses.

There are a lot of G lenses on sale of late ... as the E lenses keep coming out.

scooby70

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2017, 03:42:58 AM »


However, what this doesn't address is the fact AF is no good with 3rd party adapters trying to adapt Canon lenses to Sony bodies.

You know for a fact that no adapted Canon lens works well on Sony?

On another forum there are people using Canon lenses and reporting near Canon body speed. I'd assume that some lens and adapter / firmware combinations work well whereas some others don't but as in all things maybe it's best to be specific if we can rather than make sweeping statements.   
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hogloff

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2017, 08:57:07 AM »

You know for a fact that no adapted Canon lens works well on Sony?

On another forum there are people using Canon lenses and reporting near Canon body speed. I'd assume that some lens and adapter / firmware combinations work well whereas some others don't but as in all things maybe it's best to be specific if we can rather than make sweeping statements.

Yes, there are many Canon lenses that AF very well with adapters and both Sigma and Metabones release new firmware on a regular basis which not only enhances existing AF, but also enable AF with lenses which did not AF that well previously.

There is even an adapter which allows AF of manual focus lenses...kind of neat to see my old Zuiko lenses autofocusing.
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BJL

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However, what this doesn't address is the fact AF is no good with 3rd party adapters trying to adapt Canon lenses to Sony bodies.
(It's a non-issue with MF lenses, but it's a big issue for very expensive super-telephotos suddenly losing their AF ability.)
The reviews seem mixed: the DPReview article https://www.dpreview.com/videos/4134648312/video-sony-a9-falls-short-with-canon-300mm-and-400mm-lenses-attached reports that the Sony A9 gives poor AF performance with tracking AF and the outer AF points on  Canon's 300/2.8 and 400/2.8, but does fine with other shorter lenses, and is fine on those long lenses for single-shot AF using the central AF point.

A related question is whether there will continue to be a split of ultrasonic AF motors ("Silent Wave", "USM") giving best AF on SLRs while linear stepper motors are best for mirrorless (and also best for video AF), or if eventually one lens AF motor design will be state-of-the-art for both SLR and mirrorless AF systems.

These raise some pro and cons for Nikon staying with F-mount vs. going to a new, shallower mirrorless mount if and when it produces mirrorless bodies in 36x24mm format:
- a new mount would allow use of many third party lenses via adaptors: attractive to some customers, but less so if AF is sometimes poor, and a disadvantage to Nikon which wishes to sell is own lenses.
- If it continues to be the case that mirrorless bodies get the best performance with linear stepper motors while SLRs get best AF with ultrasonic motors, then Nikon would be better off with two separate high-end lens systems, and then persisting with the F-mount on mirrorless bodies makes less sense. On the other hand, if Nikon can get the full AF performance of its high-end lenses on both types of body, there is more incentive to make them usable on both types with minimum hassle, which weighs in favor of persisting with the F-mount.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 09:23:21 AM by BJL »
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hogloff

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The reviews seem mixed: the DPReview article https://www.dpreview.com/videos/4134648312/video-sony-a9-falls-short-with-canon-300mm-and-400mm-lenses-attached reports that the Sony A9 gives poor AF performance with tracking AF and the outer AF points on  Canon's 300/2.8 and 400/2.8, but does fine with other shorter lenses, and is fine on those long lenses for single-shot AF using the central AF point.

A related question is whether there will continue to be a split of ultrasonic AF motors ("Silent Wave", "USM") giving best AF on SLRs while linear stepper motors are best for mirrorless (and also best for video AF), or if eventually one lens AF motor design will be state-of-the-art for both SLR and mirrorless AF systems.

These raise some pro and cons for Nikon staying with F-mount vs. going to a new, shallower mirrorless mount if and when it produces mirrorless bodies in 36x24mm format:
- a new mount would allow use of many third party lenses via adaptors: attractive to some customers, but less so if AF is sometimes poor, and a disadvantage to Nikon which wishes to sell is own lenses.
- If it continues to be the case that mirrorless bodies get the best performance with linear stepper motors while SLRs get best AF with ultrasonic motors, then Nikon would be better off with two separate high-end lens systems, and then persisting with the F-mount on mirrorless bodies makes less sense. On the other hand, if Nikon can get the full AF performance of its high-end lenses on both types of body, there is more incentive to make them usable on both types with minimum hassle, which weighs in favor of persisting with the F-mount.

The other key feature of redesigning a mount soecifically for mirrorless is the ability to design smaller and lighter lenses. Lenses such as the Sony 12-24 or the Zeiss Loxia 21 are smaller and lighter than their DSLR designed lenses. For me, that possibility of a lighter package ( camera and lens ) is one very attractive feature over a DSLR package.
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Kiwi Paul

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2017, 10:21:02 AM »

When Mirrorless cameras first came out the sensor only had Contrast Detect not Phase detect focus thus they needed to redesign lenses to be able to move faster during focusing. Adapted phase detect lenses would work but were very slow partly due to the extra mass of the moving parts and a stepper motor not designed for CD.
The new mirrorless cameras now incorporate phase detect on the sensor as well as contrast detect so it should be possible to use lenses designed for phase detect auto focus (i.e. ones for use with DSLR's) with reasonably good performance. So I imagine it's possible the existing range of Nikon lenses could still work quite satisfactorily on a new mirrorless camera.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2017, 12:22:15 PM »

That's what Sony people have to do: fiddle with adapters, taking them off for Sony glass, and putting them on again for other brands.

It would be different with Nikon, because they don't need to panhandle to other companies for "help" in the glass department. Nikon already has a full complement of glass.


Not really. Sony's ILCE system has a very full complement of lenses today. The ones missing are essentially long tele primes, and for those, users can mount A-mount lenses via Sony adapters. Similar to Nikon users mounting Nikon F lenses in the current Nikon V1 system, or in a future Nikon MILC system.

JKoerner007

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2017, 11:23:46 PM »

When Mirrorless cameras first came out the sensor only had Contrast Detect not Phase detect focus thus they needed to redesign lenses to be able to move faster during focusing. Adapted phase detect lenses would work but were very slow partly due to the extra mass of the moving parts and a stepper motor not designed for CD.
The new mirrorless cameras now incorporate phase detect on the sensor as well as contrast detect so it should be possible to use lenses designed for phase detect auto focus (i.e. ones for use with DSLR's) with reasonably good performance. So I imagine it's possible the existing range of Nikon lenses could still work quite satisfactorily on a new mirrorless camera.

Makes sense.

BJL

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2017, 10:28:09 AM »

The new mirrorless cameras now incorporate phase detect on the sensor as well as contrast detect so it should be possible to use lenses designed for phase detect auto focus (i.e. ones for use with DSLR's) with reasonably good performance. So I imagine it's possible the existing range of Nikon lenses could still work quite satisfactorily on a new mirrorless camera.
Yes, I am an optimist about the progress of the newer technologies like on-sensor AF making existing SLR lenses work fine with Live View. It could even be that this is one of the factors dictating Canon and Nikon's relatively late move to take mirrorless options more seriously.

One complication for future lens system evolution is that, while ring-type ultrasonic motors give the speediest AF for still photography, they are not the best for AF during video recording, and so Nikon and Canon are now both offering some video-oriented SLR lenses with linear AF motors. (This is apart from all of Canon's EOS-M lenses using STM linear AF motors.)
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John Camp

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2017, 05:16:44 PM »

I don't think it's possible to create "world-class mini-lenses" ... at least not yet ... <snip>Thoughts?


Leica would disagree. Their Summicrons are pretty decent, and not very big. It all depends on how much the customer is willing to pay.

I have two systems, a Nikon D3 and D-800 with several lenses including all three f2.8 zooms, and a couple of Panasonic GX8 bodies with a good selection of m4/3 lenses. When I went to Iraq as a reporter, I took a D3 with the zooms and a couple other lenses, and with all the other crap I had to carry like the armor, helmet & water, the weight damn near killed me. For the shots I took, I could easily replace that system with the GX8s and four or lenses that in total wouldn't probably weigh half as much...and for news purposes, the m4/3 is every bit at usable as the Nikons. (Actually  the Nikon V system would have been even better than the Pannys, if it had a more complete selection of lenses...for news purposes.)

I don't see *any* advantages to a new APS-C system from Nikon -- I certainly wouldn't buy one. It doesn't have the weight advantages of the V system or the m4/3 systems, nor does it offer the quality of the FF or Fuji MF systems, so exactly what would be the point? A more interesting option from my point of view would be a Fuji-like MF mirrorless with a new lens mount that could also be used on a later FF offering...as a way to edge away from the F mount without really saying so, plus an upgraded V system with more lenses. The V is really a terrific little camera, and the 1-inch sensors are getting really good for what they are. They could cover selected pro work and virtually all news work, if they had a wider selection of lenses. And if Nikon really wanted to stay on top of the high-end, high-quality stuff, why not a sensor larger than FF? The Fuji, fully tricked out, is only a bit heavier than a D810, and with further miniaturization, I think Nikon could produce a MF body the same size as the 810.
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JKoerner007

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2017, 07:34:00 PM »

Leica would disagree. Their Summicrons are pretty decent, and not very big. It all depends on how much the customer is willing to pay.

Good point. Would purchase a Summicron 50mm over an Otus any day ... if only they fit Nikons.

I suppose I should clarify: I don't think it's possible to create "world-class mini-super-telephoto lenses" ... at least not yet.

I may be wrong in that regard though ... but haven't seen one yet.



I have two systems, a Nikon D3 and D-800 with several lenses including all three f2.8 zooms, and a couple of Panasonic GX8 bodies with a good selection of m4/3 lenses. When I went to Iraq as a reporter, I took a D3 with the zooms and a couple other lenses, and with all the other crap I had to carry like the armor, helmet & water, the weight damn near killed me. For the shots I took, I could easily replace that system with the GX8s and four or lenses that in total wouldn't probably weigh half as much...and for news purposes, the m4/3 is every bit at usable as the Nikons. (Actually  the Nikon V system would have been even better than the Pannys, if it had a more complete selection of lenses...for news purposes.)

Interesting.



I don't see *any* advantages to a new APS-C system from Nikon -- I certainly wouldn't buy one. It doesn't have the weight advantages of the V system or the m4/3 systems, nor does it offer the quality of the FF or Fuji MF systems, so exactly what would be the point? A more interesting option from my point of view would be a Fuji-like MF mirrorless with a new lens mount that could also be used on a later FF offering...as a way to edge away from the F mount without really saying so, plus an upgraded V system with more lenses. The V is really a terrific little camera, and the 1-inch sensors are getting really good for what they are. They could cover selected pro work and virtually all news work, if they had a wider selection of lenses. And if Nikon really wanted to stay on top of the high-end, high-quality stuff, why not a sensor larger than FF? The Fuji, fully tricked out, is only a bit heavier than a D810, and with further miniaturization, I think Nikon could produce a MF body the same size as the 810.

My reason for being with Nikon is macro and telephoto. If I shot standard focal lengths (35mm-135), I agree there are many tempting brand options these days. But for sports/wildlife (extreme macro + extreme reach) the premium quality options are pretty much either Canon or Nikon, of which I prefer the latter.

In this capacity, the APS-C D500 is tough to beat. The most obvious advantage it has is reach + speed + features. I recently sold mine, waiting for the D850 to come out, but after missing it for a month ... I re-ordered another. It is just too good, too fast, and too capable. Blows the D810 out of the water for action. Has better reach than the D5. Has better image quality than the D5 + the 1.4x TC to equal the D500's reach advantage. The D500 is IMO the most bang-for-the-buck, attractive wildlife camera I have seen.

I agree with you that MF will eventually shrink down to D810 size. At 46-50mpx, the D850 will, essentially, be a MF camera of 2 years ago.
However, thinking about that, this is another reason I went back to the D500. It is all I need for what I do.

Do I really want to riddle-off hundreds of 100MB images on my cards, and then process/save them, etc.? The D500 files are all anyone needs for magazines or internet presentation ... which is where 99.9% of bird photos, and wildlife photos, are going to be. Maybe if I want to blow-up some kind of incredible lion photo, to canvass a living room wall, then maybe shooting with the D810/D850 would be the choice. But for the most part internet/magazine articles are where wildlife photos go ... so the D500 is all the camera anyone needs for wildlife IMO.

Nikon should be announcing something this month, and I think the next year + early 2018 are going to reveal alot of cool offerings from multiple manufacturers.

BJL

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2017, 09:33:27 AM »

@JKoerner007: yes, removing the OVF only has much overall camera size advantage with normal to wide focal lengths including standard zooms. For us long telephoto and macro nature photography fans, far more is to be gained from higher sensor resolution—meaning smaller photo-sites, not more of them—and that continues to favor 24x16 and 4/3 over 36x24 and up.
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