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Author Topic: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera  (Read 9583 times)

hogloff

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2017, 08:15:45 AM »

It seems pretty likely that whatver Nikon decides to release will be best in class.

The question is what they decide to release and when. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Yeh, but what class? Kindergarten or masters level university.
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BJL

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Nikon statement plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2017, 10:51:08 AM »

One tiny bit of extra information: a Nikon statement in English:
"While details are confidential, we can say that we are currently developing new mirrorless products that build upon Nikon's strengths, and offer the performance prospective customers expect, including the ultimate optics performance, image-processing technologies, strength and durability, and operation."https://www.dpreview.com/news/9148147105/official-statement-nikon-currently-developing-new-mirrorless-cameras

But note again the reference to the "smart-phone generation" and "fun" in the earlier statement, this time translated by a human (native Japanese speaker) — and with a previously suppressed and rather unfortunate last sentence about "girly cams"!
"For a smartphone generation, we [will] put out a very Nikon-ish mirrorless camera which is superior to rivals in quality. Making the best use of industrial lens technology, we would like to overwhelm them in lens quality. On the other hand, we need fun. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a project like “an easy-to-use DSLR for girls”?" — loc. cit.
(The previous Google translation puts this in the future tense, so I added the "will".

I am not sure that wording like "smart-phone generation" and "we need fun" fit the hopes for 36x24mm format, but hopefully we will know before too long.
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2017, 11:46:44 AM »

I doubt anything but a well designed FF mirrorless body where Nikon lenses can be used without the need of an adaptor, will make any difference in an already crowded mirrorless market. Not at least as a serious replacement for current pro DSLR bodies.

And the same applies to Canon FF mirrorless. Time will say.

Regards

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JKoerner007

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Re: Nikon statement plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2017, 11:55:09 AM »

I am not sure that wording like "smart-phone generation" and "we need fun" fit the hopes for 36x24mm format, but hopefully we will know before too long.

Nikon's president clearly said, "We are currently developing new mirrorless products ...", which has an 's' at the end of it.

Therefore, it seems pretty clear they intend to develop both high-end, serious mirrorless cameras with "the ultimate optics performance, image-processing technologies, strength and durability" ... and consumer level-options.

BJL

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2017, 01:25:48 PM »

I doubt anything but a well designed FF mirrorless body where Nikon lenses can be used without the need of an adaptor,
Please explain this insistence on prioritizing backward compatibility over future design flexibility, by making bodies work very slightly more easily with legacy lenses at the expense of hampering options for future lens and body designs by imposing an necessarily large distance between lens mount and sensor. Are adaptors really so evil? As I have said before, what you propose can be achieved more flexibly by bundling an adaptor with the body in an "F-mount curmudgeon kit"!

And the same applies to Canon FF mirrorless.
Notwithstanding that Canon has so far instead done what I propose, with the EOS-M mount. (Along with Sony in both 24x16 and 36x24 formats, and everyone else except Pentax.)

Time will say.
I hope so!
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BJL

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Nikon's president clearly said, "We are currently developing new mirrorless products ...", which has an 's' at the end of it.

Therefore, it seems pretty clear they intend to develop both high-end, serious mirrorless cameras with "the ultimate optics performance, image-processing technologies, strength and durability" ... and consumer level-options.
Indeed: the products could range like those of Olympus and Panasonic in MFT, or in the way that 35mm film SLR gear from companies like Nikon ranged from entry-level to professional, with a price range for bodies of about ten-fold within the same format, and a vastly wider range in price and performance for lenses.  Whichever format Nikon chooses initially, I predict that it will not over-stretch it resources by launching two mirrorless system formats at once.
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2017, 02:43:19 PM »

Please explain this insistence on prioritizing backward compatibility over future desigflexibility

Very simple, it is not backward compatibility, it is preexisting customer base compatibility. Without that advantage Nikon really needs to do it much better than any other mirrorless camera maker to succeed. Pleasing its current customers just needs a good product to ease the transition from DSLR to mirrorless.

I wish I were wrong, and I would love to be able to enjoy a brand new digital native mirrorless FF system from Nikon, but would be (happily) surprised if Nikon took that way.

Regards
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BJL

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2017, 04:16:46 PM »

Very simple, it is not backward compatibility, it is preexisting customer base compatibility.
Firstly, you keep not responding to my point that such compatibility can be provided with a mount adaptor, which at worst just makes the camera body with adaptor about as bulky as an F-mount mirrorless body would be.

Secondly, surely it is a matter of balancing, not declaring that one factor (accommodating lenses that people already own) takes absolute priority over the other (making the new system better in the long run, and immediately better for people without legacy lenses). That balance is between the cost of an adaptor for some customers and the permanent disadvantage of a bulkier body and more restricted lens design options.

Let me add the cynical point that Nikon has more incentive to sell new lenses than to help customers keep using ones they already have!

Why do you expect Nikon to take a different course than every other vaguely successful mirrorless system (i.e. not the failed Pentax K-01). Is backward compatibility so much more important to Nikon?
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2017, 07:14:24 PM »

Firstly, you keep not responding to my point that such compatibility can be provided with a mount adaptor, which at worst just makes the camera body with adaptor about as bulky as an F-mount mirrorless body would be.

I have opened surveys in other forums: Canikon users DON'T like adapters. Full stop. They are usually endogamic and don't want to be fiddling with adapters. It's a matter of concept and lazyness rather than performance itself. They love their bulky lenses and don't need another mount.

A solution based on adapters will have other disadvantage I already explained: OK Nikon has a new FF mirrorless mount. What about the new lenses? they'll be replicated both in the old and new mount doubling production effort? they will be developed only for the new mount letting down the huge DSLR customer base? or nonsensically designed for the old system perpetuating the old mount?. All that is no problem if you keep the same mount.

IMO any Canikon mirrorless body designed to replace current FF DSLR's will be straight compatible with the F and EF mounts. A different story is a new APS mirrorless system (e.g. EOS M) aimed at those occasional users wanting to travel light.

Regards

Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk
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JKoerner007

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Indeed: the products could range like those of Olympus and Panasonic in MFT, or in the way that 35mm film SLR gear from companies like Nikon ranged from entry-level to professional, with a price range for bodies of about ten-fold within the same format, and a vastly wider range in price and performance for lenses.  Whichever format Nikon chooses initially, I predict that it will not over-stretch it resources by launching two mirrorless system formats at once.

I would actually like to see Nikon offer two different systems: one, in a smaller format, with smaller lenses ... so that we could carry a smaller rig (if we so choose).

The other I am hoping will be their 'top-tier' ... compatible with existing Nikkor E lenses (allowing for an AI-S implementation) ... either directly-attached ... or through Nikon-engineered adapters which ought to be superior to 3rd-party adapters ... in the same fashion Nikon TCs allow for the same level/performance of auto-focus as do lenses without the TC.

BJL

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2017, 07:56:42 PM »

I have opened surveys in other forums: Canikon users DON'T like adapters. Full stop. They are usually endogamic and don't want to be fiddling with adapters. . . .
Given that most CaNikon users have no experience with adapting mbetwen mirrorles and SLR bodies (with Canon EOS-M and Nikon One users a small fraction of CaNikon users), I will go with your second comment
. . . It's a matter of concept and lazyness rather than performance itself. They love their bulky lenses and don't need another mount.
In other words, it sounds like an ignorant and irrational objection to something they have not experienced, based perhaps on the idea that the majority of usage of a mirrorless body will be with SLR lenses. These sound like the sentiments of people who are not much interested in the advantages of a mirrorless system, beyond a more comfortable way to use Live View—Nikon and Canon would be better of serving this group with accessory EVFs for DSLRs, and aiming its mirrorless system at the next generation.  Planning around the desires of existing well-established users at the expense of what will be most attractive to future customers would be a recipe for a Kodak-like fade into irrelevance.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2017, 04:01:14 AM »

I simply do not see the majority of DSLR buyers (who buy entry to mid-level DSLRs) fidgeting with adapters and the like. The latter are more the purview of enthusiasts. As for pros, they make a small part of the market, but they to do not like or wish to fumble with adapters.

It is mostly enthusiasts that enjoy playing around with such stuff. For the rest of users, they just want to take the shot as simple as possible.

Chairman Bill

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2017, 04:56:33 AM »

It can't be beyond Nikon to build a mirrorless camera without the need of a separate adaptor - you just build the mount assembly a little differently. If that means a slightly fatter camera, so be it; reduce the dimensions elsewhere and you still get a smaller, lighter camera.

BJL

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2017, 09:34:29 AM »

I simply do not see the majority of DSLR buyers (who buy entry to mid-level DSLRs) fidgeting with adapters and the like.
Agreed! Internet forums seem to be awash with talk of using adaptor mounted lenses ("Canon glass on my Sony A9", "I can use EF lens on my EOS-M", etc.) all out of proportion to actual patterns of usage.

My prediction is that the next Nikon mirrorless system will use the 24x16mm "DX" format—I'll call the new system "DX-M"—with the entry- to mid-level buyers mostly equipping the new bodies with lenses designed for that new system and its new, far shallower lens mount and so not using adaptors at all. Either because this is their first ILC, or they are coming from another brand and so have no F-mount lenses, or because they sell their DX gear on the second-hand market. Adaptor users will be very much in the minority, for less common cases like occasionally using an SLR lens that is already owned and too expensive to replace quickly, or a lens that fills a gap in the new "DX-M" lens line-up. (I do that with my most expensive Four Third SLR lens—the 50-200/2.8-3.5—and there is almost no fiddling with an adaptor, because it just stays on that lens.)

The question I have for all those predicting that Nikon will keep the F-mount in its next mirrorless system is why do you think that, Panasonic, Olympus, Sony (even with all those Alpha-mount SLR lenses going back to the Minolta days) and Canon (even with all those EF-S and EF lenses) instead went for new mirrorless lens mounts far shallower than their previously-used SLR mounts?
Is it because you also expect Nikon to differ from those other companies by skipping the main-stream digital ILC formats and starting with a 36x24mm format system aimed primarily at people who already have most or all of the lenses they need, and who want to keep using them?  I would dub that camera the "Df-M".
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2017, 10:30:21 AM »

The question I have for all those predicting that Nikon will keep the F-mount in its next mirrorless system is why do you think that, Panasonic, Olympus, Sony (even with all those Alpha-mount SLR lenses going back to the Minolta days) and Canon (even with all those EF-S and EF lenses) instead went for new mirrorless lens mounts far shallower than their previously-used SLR mounts?

Because Panasonic, Olympus, Sony had a minuscle or no customer base on which to rely, so they were free to start from scratch. In fact it was their only choice after losing the DSLR battle. And Canon's EOS M is not intended as a serious replacement for their DSLR's, specially FF models. It's just an easy to carry complement for already Canon DSLR users. Just ask yourself how many non-Canon users are buying an M5 as their main camera or replacing their Canon DSLR's by a M5 with the adapter.

In addition to that, by the time all those companies launched their systems the mirrorless market was completely non-existent or immature. Now it is not, that is why Canon and Nikon shouldn't afford to obviate perfect compatibility with their current DSLR mounts, it's their main stronghold!. They have more choices than mirrorless makers, but unluckily they will maintain their mounts. This is my prediction and I hope to be wrong.

Regards
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kers

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2017, 11:12:40 AM »

It would be a good moment for Nikon to come with a FF Mirrorless exactly on the 100 years anniversary.
Already 18 years ago since the former cornerstone the D1

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JKoerner007

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2017, 11:14:30 AM »

Because Panasonic, Olympus, Sony had a minuscle or no customer base on which to rely, so they were free to start from scratch. In fact it was their only choice after losing the DSLR battle. And Canon's EOS M is not intended as a serious replacement for their DSLR's, specially FF models. It's just an easy to carry complement for already Canon DSLR users. Just ask yourself how many non-Canon users are buying an M5 as their main camera or replacing their Canon DSLR's by a M5 with the adapter.

Good point.



In addition to that, by the time all those companies launched their systems the mirrorless market was completely non-existent or immature. Now it is not, that is why Canon and Nikon shouldn't afford to obviate perfect compatibility with their current DSLR mounts, it's their main stronghold!. They have more choices than mirrorless makers, but unluckily they will maintain their mounts. This is my prediction and I hope to be wrong.
Regards

It is also possible that they will use their existing lens excellence and just offer them in a "new" mount also. Sigma makes lenses and sells the same lens in several different mounts.

I posted this on another thread topic, but Nikon could (1) make their existing lenses in a new mount, and (2) offer a "mount-conversion" service in the future, albeit only on the E lenses.

In fact this article on Photography Life is about a new Nikkor lens that does not work an any of Nikon's older cameras (D7200, D750, D810) ... but only on Nikon's newest and DX only. It is a new-generation lens with a stepping motor (AF-P) ... and Nasim Mansurov predicts it will be usable on the new Nikkor mirrorless as well.

kers

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2017, 01:16:35 PM »

my prediction :
It will be like the Nikon1 series- but FF
Different mount with some good lightweight f2.8 lenses to start with- making it a kind of sony 7
and an adapter for the F-mount lenses- making it still smaller than the DSLR.
I only hope they introduce two adapters- one normal and one TS.
It would be nice to use all nikkors with T+S, and there is enough space for it.

(What i could use is a silent camera/ a less obtrusive camera with good quality    that i can use with all my nikkor lenses)
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BJL

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2017, 05:22:02 PM »

Because Panasonic, Olympus, Sony had a minuscle or no customer base on which to rely, so they were free to start from scratch.
Isn't the argument for sticking with the SLR mount that it provides backward compatibility with exiting SLR lenses (both ones owned by potential customers and the ones that the camera maker has available to sell), rathe than with existing DLSR bodies? If so, there are a great many Canon EF and EF-S lenses and quite a lot of Alpha mount SLR lenses too (from Sony and Konica-Minolta and back to Minolta), so a similar argument for sticking with EF-S, EF, and Alph mounts on those mirrorless systems.

P. S. On the the hand, if Nikon does surprise me and go straight to a 36x24mm format mirrorless system, the argument for keeping the existing mount and relying more heavily on existing SLR lenses and gets stronger, because (a) it might take a lot more resources to develop an array of lenses sufficient for that more demanding market, and (b) a higher proportion of potential customers are more heavily invested in SLR lenses. (Though Hasselblad and FujiFilm have launched their 44x33mm format systems with just a few lenses plus adaptors. I could add Hasselblad as another example of a well-established SLR maker that decided to go the "new mount plus adaptors" route for its mirrorless system.)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 06:17:42 PM by BJL »
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JKoerner007

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Re: Nikon president comments on plans for another mirrorless camera
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2017, 06:23:10 PM »

The more I think about it, the more I don't see Nikon 'replacing' DSLRs with mirrorless ... but, instead, simply offering them as an expanded selection option amongst many, due to their growing popularity.

It occurs to me that 3 things are true:
  • It will be easier for Nikon to create 1 or 2 top-tier mirrorless cameras ... than it will be for Sony to come close to equaling Nikon's multi-dimensional, class-leading lens portfolio.
  • By bringing in 2 really-good mirrorless cameras (DX/FX), Nikon would immediately be 'ahead of the game,' because no other mirroless company can touch Nikon's lens line-up. Why should an A7RII person limp long, using adapters + 'other company's lenses' ... and wait ... and wait ... for Sony to come out with 2nd/3rd-best glass ... when they could immediately use a panacea of the best glass available, the second they bought a Nikon mirrorless, when they arrive? Same with Fuji. They have, what? 3 good lenses ... and not much else to offer. By contrast, Nikon has no holes in its lens line-up.
  • Smaller is not always better. My girlfriend's new D5600 is a lot smaller than my D810 (and smaller still than a D5), and she loves it compared to her discarded 7D. But the D5600 is ridiculous to put on my 300mm VR II. It would be even more ridiculous to put this tiny camera on a 600/800mm. I don't think the whole world really wants "smaller" ... small cameras are really only good for tourists, or those who walk-around and hand-hold. Telephoto shooters actually need big glass + big cameras. I don't think it's possible to create "world-class mini-lenses" ... at least not yet ... and big glass need big cameras in back of them.
So I think I think large DSLRs and telephotos are here to stay, at least for a long while.

And I think a couple of really good mirrorless cameras would instantly make Nikon a thousand times more complete/attractive mirrorless option than the lens-bereft Sony.

Thoughts?
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