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Author Topic: New Article - The Toughest Print  (Read 2186 times)

Kevin Raber

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New Article - The Toughest Print
« on: July 10, 2017, 11:08:40 AM »

We just published a new article on the site by long-time contributor and friend Josh Holko, The Toughest Print.  Josh shares his experience trying to make a print that is composed of shades of white.  If you are into printing this article is a must read.
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Kevin Raber
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2017, 11:12:02 AM »

The article is excellent - I would add - while the focus is on the whites, it's equally important to pay attention to what Joshua says about the deep dark tones too.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2017, 11:36:24 AM »

Yes, quite excellent and now I'm rethinking about how to print some of my 'Snowmagedon' images captured back during our 2010 blizzard here in the Washington DC area.  Thanks to Joshua for this!!!
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Sharon VL

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2017, 02:16:23 PM »

The print shown is considerably warmer than the digital image. Is that accurate to how the print actually looks or just from ondoor lighting? Btw, the print looks gorgeous.

schertz

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2017, 04:01:33 PM »

The print shown is considerably warmer than the digital image. Is that accurate to how the print actually looks or just from ondoor lighting? Btw, the print looks gorgeous.

I think it's mostly the colour temp of the the posted image of the print. The museum rag is a bit warm (lower OBA levels compared to a "Bright" paper), however, if you white balance the image using the gray background of the gti booth, most of the warmth in the posted image is removed.

Beautiful photograph and print.

Mike
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Sharon VL

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2017, 04:57:34 PM »

I think it's mostly the colour temp of the the posted image of the print. The museum rag is a bit warm (lower OBA levels compared to a "Bright" paper), however, if you white balance the image using the gray background of the gti booth, most of the warmth in the posted image is removed.

Beautiful photograph and print.

Mike

That's what I thought, too. But wondered how warm that paper was. It is very beautiful.

Jeff-Grant

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2017, 06:25:43 PM »

It is an interesting article but I am somewhat confused by the piece on modifying the profile. At the risk of showing my ignorance, surelythe paper white is known at the time of the profile build so why would you need to modify it?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 06:35:43 PM by Jeff-Grant »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2017, 07:21:45 PM »

It is an interesting article but I am somewhat confused by the piece on modifying the profile. At the risk of showing my ignorance, surelythe paper white is known at the time of the profile build so why would you need to modify it?

Yes, paper white is known, but in the levels immediately below that, it's how the profile handles fine distinctions of shades of light-light-grey and fine distinctions of hue in those extremely light tones. For the kind of photo that Joshua was working with, I can see how it may be important to modify how the profile helps to render those fine tonal distinctions just below paper white.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Jeff-Grant

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2017, 07:53:25 PM »

Thanks Mark. How would one go about modifying the profile with the new knowledge. Wouldn't it be better to build a new one that included patches for the top whites and blacks?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2017, 08:08:48 PM »

There is software for modifying profiles. I've never used it - those who have say it's rather demanding to get it right. One can vary profile performance by altering the profiling targets, but there is an element of unpredictability in doing that, whereas directly editing the profile data, from my understanding of what's involved, would be more controllable and predictable.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Jeff-Grant

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2017, 10:06:35 PM »

That's my understanding. Most folks that I have discussed this with make it sound like magic which leaves me very suspicious. I have yet to hear a clear description of the process. I have found that most 'CM' gurus always stop short of ever disclosing how to do such things. Funnily enough, B&W printing other than ABW does this as standard practice where you expect to see highlights and shadow detail to the full extent.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2017, 11:31:16 PM »

There are color management books providing general descriptions of profile editing, both input and output. Detailed instruction for current application versions I have yet to see. Heck, X-Rite hasn't even produced a basic manual for using i1Profiler's core functions, let alone anything as esoteric as editing.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Doug Gray

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2017, 12:24:19 AM »

There is software for modifying profiles. I've never used it - those who have say it's rather demanding to get it right. One can vary profile performance by altering the profiling targets, but there is an element of unpredictability in doing that, whereas directly editing the profile data, from my understanding of what's involved, would be more controllable and predictable.

I played the old GMB PM5 Profiler editor but found it only useful for aligning the L black point intercept to match the inked black point. Technically, profiles' BtoA1 should be constructed so that the XYZ tracks a linear scale from the media white point down to whatever the darkest printable color is. Then, as the requested Lab drops below what can be printed the norm is to output whatever RGB value results in the smallest dE from the request. Most often the darkest printable patch is some dE away from the darkest, printable, in gamut color and that generates the sudden color shift.

This results in the expected blocking of any darker colors (assuming no BPC in Rel Col.) but also a sudden shift in the color as well. Often sudden dEs changes of 1.5 to 3. Editing the profile was one way to change that behavior to eliminate the color shift. I abandoned this approach finding it easier to tweak things in Photoshop. I have not run into any problems at the high tone end. At least with patch counts of 1.5k or more.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2017, 07:47:59 AM »

Thanks Doug, that's insightful.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

kers

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2017, 01:03:11 PM »

interesting article...
maybe it is me; i downloaded the grayscale chart but found the numbers incorrect ( measured in photoshop)
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Pieter Kers
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BradSmith

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2017, 01:10:06 PM »

interesting article...
maybe it is me; i downloaded the grayscale chart but found the numbers incorrect ( measured in photoshop)

I did the same and found them to be perfect in Photoshop.  Strange
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Jeff-Grant

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2017, 05:26:09 PM »

It depends on your working profile.
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David Sutton

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2017, 05:45:31 PM »

It depends on your working profile.

Could be.
I put it down to the jpeg compression. I've never had a jpeg version that has been accurate.
Forum members are welcome to download my own prophoto tiff:
http://davidsutton.co.nz/resources/

David
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Josh-H

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2017, 08:36:05 PM »

Hi all,

Firstly, thank you for the comments about the article. I am glad it has been enjoyed. Printing is something very close to my heart!

Regarding the greyscale patch. You should not use this jpeg from the article for the purpose I describe in the print process. I included it just to illustrate what it looks like, not for download for critical print work. I use the original PSD file I created for this.

kers

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Re: New Article - The Toughest Print
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2017, 11:10:30 PM »

Regarding the greyscale patch. You should not use this jpeg from the article for the purpose I describe in the print process. I included it just to illustrate what it looks like, not for download for critical print work. I use the original PSD file I created for this.

OK Josh,
That might explain the difference- thanks! and for writing the article.
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Pieter Kers
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