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Author Topic: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future  (Read 2156 times)

dreed

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Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« on: July 07, 2017, 11:38:07 PM »

Something I see mentioned in various forums a lot is that people seem to like the color that comes out of Canon's digital cameras more than that of Sony's. I don't know if this is just in-baked brand bias or if there really is something to it. I realise that with post processing it is possible to change any color to another color but my goal isn't to add to the amount of time I need to spend doing post.

Of those here that have moved from either Canon to Sony, was this issue important to you at all?
Is the difference actually noticable or is it only in review testing that this is born out?
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scyth

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2017, 08:34:32 AM »

the color that comes out of Canon's digital cameras

the wording suggests OOC JPG ... otherwise raw file has no "color" (it might have embedded, by firmware, data for color transform and even then no guarantee that you converter of choice will use that)
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2017, 09:46:27 AM »


Sensor pixels have colour filters. The strength and type used is a trade off of colour accuracy and light sensitivity

This does affect both RAW and JPEG...
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scyth

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2017, 02:50:11 PM »

Sensor pixels have colour filters.

or not ... in any case you are welcome to tell us if in a raw file from your favorite camera some sensel DN value is "X" - what "color" (as in coordinates in a proper color space) is it ;D ?

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Telecaster

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2017, 03:13:39 PM »

Beyond herd mentality, which I won't get into, I think folks tend to like what they're familiar with. When sensors came on the scene I disliked their color rendering across the board, mainly 'cuz none of 'em looked anything like Kodachrome.  ;)  Pretty sure I used the phrase "video stills" here in a derogatory way at least once. But nowadays I'm used to sensor color, and anyway it's malleable enough that I can get a look I'm happy with from any camera system.

-Dave-
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2017, 07:18:10 PM »

or not ... in any case you are welcome to tell us if in a raw file from your favorite camera some sensel DN value is "X" - what "color" (as in coordinates in a proper color space) is it ;D ?

Tell me where the straw man touched you?
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dreed

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2017, 10:15:34 PM »

Sensor pixels have colour filters. The strength and type used is a trade off of colour accuracy and light sensitivity

Yes, there's both this and the responsiveness of the light sensitive diode to wavelength of light let through by the filter.

Beyond herd mentality, which I won't get into, I think folks tend to like what they're familiar with. When sensors came on the scene I disliked their color rendering across the board, mainly 'cuz none of 'em looked anything like Kodachrome.  ;)  ... But nowadays I'm used to sensor color, and anyway it's malleable enough that I can get a look I'm happy with from any camera system.

That's great advice, thanks.

Time to give up the mirror-slapper.
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David Sutton

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2017, 10:55:49 PM »

This is more of an aside, as I haven't tried Sony.
I've heard some people prefer Canon for skin tones.
I the past I profiled my Canon cameras, and now my current Fuji X cameras with a ColourChecker Passport. That made quite a difference, especially on the Canon files.
I find myself now doing less work across the board on the colour in post than I did with the Canon images, so I guess that means either I prefer the colour out of the Fuji cameras or my eyesight is going down the drain.
David
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RobertJ

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2017, 08:59:02 PM »

Without getting technical (because you guys are smarter than me on this issue), the Raw Sony A7RII files in Capture One Pro with the default or standard Sony color profiles can lean toward yellow/orange/oversaturated green warm tones, and can cause sickly skin tones sometimes. 

In this case, I just select a different color profile from within C1 Pro, and I can get something that is neutral, or looks like Canon, or gives me the skin tones I want, etc.

For the most part, any shots without people in them, the default Sony profiles will do.

Looking at Canon JPEGs, I think they're horrible, with very digital looking color.  On the other hand, the Canon Raw files in C1 Pro have much better color all around color for every subject, and Sony JPEGs aren't all that bad, IMO. 
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JJon

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2017, 09:10:50 PM »

Interestingly I really like Sony jpegs too. But I don't think of them as color accurate. I think they have their own look that is partially the AWB
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2017, 04:53:49 AM »


Of those here that have moved from either Canon to Sony, was this issue important to you at all?
Is the difference actually noticable or is it only in review testing that this is born out?

No.
Yes.
What I do: I use LR and use different camera profiles for different subjects.

Ghibby

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2017, 12:37:27 PM »

I've processed lots of files in LR from various cameras, Canon, Sony, Nikon, Leaf, Phase One.... I find you get used to the colour response from Adobe's profiles within the set of images you work with.

As a Canon shooter myself I find processing Canon RAW's very natural and its easy to get the colour response or manipulate the colour as I want, this is 100% because I am more used to it.  After a couple of hours of processing from another camera I start to feel how the colour responds to my processing within LR and end up with visually similar results, seasoned to my taste. 

I think the reason a lot of people say they prefer Canon colour is because the Adobe profiles for Canon are a bit better than they are for Sony & Nikon especially in the skin tones, its just ends up being easier to get pleasing colour out of the can so to speak.  With a bit of patience and practice you will get the colour you like out of any camera.

While I have no doubt that the technical specifics of the Bayer arrays are different for all the manufactures and from a scientific point of view they will be different in terms of colour response.  As an end user so much depends on the colour profile and software that for 99% of scenarios these differences are irrelevant and more specifically controllable in Lightroom or C1 to a more than acceptable look or level or perceived accuracy.

Ben
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hogloff

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2017, 05:45:47 PM »

I've processed lots of files in LR from various cameras, Canon, Sony, Nikon, Leaf, Phase One.... I find you get used to the colour response from Adobe's profiles within the set of images you work with.

As a Canon shooter myself I find processing Canon RAW's very natural and its easy to get the colour response or manipulate the colour as I want, this is 100% because I am more used to it.  After a couple of hours of processing from another camera I start to feel how the colour responds to my processing within LR and end up with visually similar results, seasoned to my taste. 

I think the reason a lot of people say they prefer Canon colour is because the Adobe profiles for Canon are a bit better than they are for Sony & Nikon especially in the skin tones, its just ends up being easier to get pleasing colour out of the can so to speak.  With a bit of patience and practice you will get the colour you like out of any camera.

While I have no doubt that the technical specifics of the Bayer arrays are different for all the manufactures and from a scientific point of view they will be different in terms of colour response.  As an end user so much depends on the colour profile and software that for 99% of scenarios these differences are irrelevant and more specifically controllable in Lightroom or C1 to a more than acceptable look or level or perceived accuracy.

Ben

There is no reason to stay with Adobe profiles. There are much better profiles you can use and even build your own.
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Ghibby

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2017, 11:56:03 AM »

There is no reason to stay with Adobe profiles. There are much better profiles you can use and even build your own.

Couldn't agree more, I use my own but the Adobe ones are still a useful reference point and good for a quick process / assessment. They also deal with some extreme lighting scenarios very well, eg bright blue LED's where many third party profiles struggle.
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scyth

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2017, 12:01:11 PM »

Couldn't agree more, I use my own but the Adobe ones are still a useful reference point and good for a quick process / assessment.

yeah, useful - w/ hidden expocorrections for example  ;D ... now if you modify them (using dcptool or dcamprof or whatever) to make behave, might be a different story

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nemophoto

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2017, 12:59:29 PM »

It actually comes down to color accuracy (sometime referred to as delta E). From numerous articles I've read, it seems that Canon's color accuracy (cameras like the 1Dx2, 5Ds, etc.) is far more accurate than the Sony. JPEGs are another story since they are generated by the camera on the fly, BUT color accuracy factors into the rendering, as well as how the JPEG is modified in the camera. That said, I do find that even the RAW very, given the same custom white balance. I had a friend do a head shot of me not long ago. We were having friendly banter about the better camera, my 5Ds, his Sony A7R II. In terms of sharpness, things were about a draw (though THAT might be different now that I replaces my 85/1.2 with the new Sigma!). Color wise, though, I infinitely preferred my 5Ds when rendered in LR. We also experimented with AWB. Again, Canon had the more pleasing color.

Please may differ with me, but these were what I happened to see on our little photo test, but these were our particular results.

Peter_DL

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2017, 02:40:32 PM »

The subject matter has little to do with color accuracy in a technical sense.
Canon was always proud that their in-camera processing engine (or their DPP Raw converter) shifts colors away from accuracy to meet human perception by a pleasing rendition. See attached pdf which is an excerpt from a former Canon website.

In order to mimic this, Adobe's Camera Matching profiles include a 3D LookTable with lightness-dependent color edits, which - according to a quote from Eric Chan are sometimes essential to match the vendor "look" (e.g., they may take "lighter" reds and make them warmer, while making "darker" reds cooler).

No other tool in LR/ACR offers this level of control.
So if you have a preference for the Canon "look", or Nikon's picture styles, or e.g. Fuji's film simulation modes, don't underestimate the task to get there when using a different camera brand.

Peter
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Telecaster

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Re: Sony color vs Canon color: thinking of a mirrorless future
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2017, 05:14:05 PM »

Right now I'm mostly using my Leica M8.2s, which are infrared-sensitive cameras that don't really render "accurate" color by current standards. But I love how the pics look, especially as processsed in Serif's new iOS version of Affinity Photo.

-Dave-
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