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Author Topic: Question about the Before/After menu on the Develop toolbar  (Read 3750 times)

jisner

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When I do soft proofing, I always create a proof copy, and I always use the Before/After button on the Develop toolbar (the button that looks like YY) to display the master photo side-by-side with the proof copy.  During soft proofing, I only make changes to the proof copy.

My question concerns the Before menu that appears on the toolbar when a Before/After view is active. Since I want to compare the proof copy with the master photo, I select Master Photo from the Before menu.

Is it really necessary to do this?  I haven't been able to find any difference between using Master Photo, Before State, and Current State.  They all display the same version of the image in the left pane.  Perhaps there are use cases where it make a difference which one I use.

 
Am I doing the right thing in selecting Master Photo?  Is there a danger in choosing Before State or Current State?

FYI: LR CC 2015.10.1 (latest version)
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rdonson

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Re: Question about the Before/After menu on the Develop toolbar
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2017, 10:16:04 pm »

With luck John Beardsworth or Mark D Segal will be answer this definitively.
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Ron

mdijb

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Re: Question about the Before/After menu on the Develop toolbar
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2017, 10:48:08 pm »

I discovered recently that one must be careful in selecting the profile that is applied to the "before" image--it can be changed.  You need to make sure the profile applied to this image is the one used to work on and create the final image.  I made the mistake of not noticing that another profile was attached to it and then printing became a problem, the colors were off.  WHen I applied the correct profile, then printing became much easier.

MDIJB
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Question about the Before/After menu on the Develop toolbar
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2017, 08:58:19 am »

When I do soft proofing, I always create a proof copy, and I always use the Before/After button on the Develop toolbar (the button that looks like YY) to display the master photo side-by-side with the proof copy.  During soft proofing, I only make changes to the proof copy.

My question concerns the Before menu that appears on the toolbar when a Before/After view is active. Since I want to compare the proof copy with the master photo, I select Master Photo from the Before menu.

Is it really necessary to do this?  I haven't been able to find any difference between using Master Photo, Before State, and Current State.  They all display the same version of the image in the left pane.  Perhaps there are use cases where it make a difference which one I use.

 
Am I doing the right thing in selecting Master Photo?  Is there a danger in choosing Before State or Current State?

FYI: LR CC 2015.10.1 (latest version)

What you are doing is correct. If you have made changes to the softproof copy of the photo and then you select Current State, the left side version will reflect the changes you made to the softproof version. If you wish to always softproof relative to the Master copy. continue doing what you are doing: work in the virtual copy and select Master Photo in the toolbar. For a more complete explanation, which takes some paragraphs, see page 492 of Martin Evening's Lightroom book.

Typically, I don't work this way for two reasons:
(1) Lightroom always preserves the original imported image in its raw state along with all the history of whatever I did to it, so nothing gets lost or permanently altered (the beauty of working in LR).
(2) I know what paper and printer I shall use for printing the photo and once I've printed it, I seldom go back to it. In these conditions, it is reasonable not to bother making a virtual copy for soft-proofing, but simply to enable softproof on the original master photo and adjust it till I am satisfied with the visual appearance of what will be printed. The exceptions are for radical changes of state that I wish to preserve separately, such a B&W conversion, or radical kinds of edits to make a sea-change of image appearance that I wish to preserve as separate interpretations for artistic purposes.

Now, having created a softproof on the master file and printed it, if I wish to change papers for another kind of print, say a major change from a Luster to a Matte paper, I would then create a virtual copy of the photo in its current edited state, and on that virtual copy make the changes needed to suit the different paper, which switching from Luster to Matte would be quite substantial. So I then have two valid renditions of the photo for the different papers.

They key thing about my workflow is that I'm not initially wedded to the non-softproofed version of the photo as a basis of comparison for soft-proofing. I do use it initially to see the full dynamic range and shadow detail my display allows, and that is useful guidance to start with, but from thence forward, all that matters is what I can output, therefore I optimize the softproof appearance of what will print within its own constraints (based on the histogram but more importantly visual perception on a well calibrated/profiled display).
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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jisner

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Re: Question about the Before/After menu on the Develop toolbar
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2017, 02:55:10 am »

Quote
it is reasonable not to bother making a virtual copy for soft-proofing, but simply to enable softproof on the original master photo and adjust it till I am satisfied with the visual appearance of what will be printed....Now, having created a softproof on the master file and printed it, if I wish to change papers for another kind of print, say a major change from a Luster to a Matte paper, I would then create a virtual copy of the photo in its current edited state, and on that virtual copy make the changes needed to suit the different paper,

First of all, thank you for explaining Current vs. Before vs. Master photo!

Although I understand your method, I would be nervous about making soft proofing changes to a master photo ["make this a proof"].   I think it is more systematic to make a (virtual) proof copy for each profile, always start from the master, and use the master as your basis for before/after comparison.  This can be done just as efficiently as in your method.  Say you want to print for profile X.  Then make a (virtual) proof copy for profile X and make proofing changes to it.  Later, you decide to print for profile Y.  Make a new (virtual) proof copy for profile Y (from the master) and Sync changes from the proof copy for profile X.  This way you start with the same set of adjustments as you made for X.  The master photo is never changed.

I believe that the master photo represents the artist's intention, and the goal of soft proofing is to get the proof copy to resemble the master as closely as possible.  If the artist's intention changes, change the master.

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Mark D Segal

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Re: Question about the Before/After menu on the Develop toolbar
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2017, 10:23:19 am »

First of all, thank you for explaining Current vs. Before vs. Master photo!

Although I understand your method, I would be nervous about making soft proofing changes to a master photo ["make this a proof"].   I think it is more systematic to make a (virtual) proof copy for each profile, always start from the master, and use the master as your basis for before/after comparison.  This can be done just as efficiently as in your method.  Say you want to print for profile X.  Then make a (virtual) proof copy for profile X and make proofing changes to it.  Later, you decide to print for profile Y.  Make a new (virtual) proof copy for profile Y (from the master) and Sync changes from the proof copy for profile X.  This way you start with the same set of adjustments as you made for X.  The master photo is never changed.

I believe that the master photo represents the artist's intention, and the goal of soft proofing is to get the proof copy to resemble the master as closely as possible.  If the artist's intention changes, change the master.

The nice thing about Lightroom is its tremendous flexibility to allow each of us to work in the way we prefer, and no one approach is necessarily better than another. Much depends on personal preference and the reasons we may have for doing it one way or another, apart from whatever constraints the software may impose. So I wouldn't argue for my approach versus yours - it's just another way I raised in case of interest.

That said, it is perhaps interesting to ponder what the real meaning of a "master image" is in a digital imaging context. Let's start from the beginning - the image file is a bunch of digital data - means nothing to viewers at this point. Next stage, it's initial appearance to us depends on how the software vendor chooses to render the preview of the demosaicing. That could resemble what the photographer initially had in mind, but not necessarily and more often, not exactly. So we begin editing the photo to get it to a state resembling our "mind's eye" at the time we made the photograph. In Lightroom, each step is retained, so we can always trip back to move before move before move it see it in any way we've done anything to it. Nice. Which stage is the "master"? When we're done with the editing? But ah, maybe to now we've edited it to make it look right on a display whose characteristics will not be reproduced on paper - especially if we haven't edited under softproof (which would mean we know the output intention). So where does the "master" end and where does the "softproof" begin? It's all a bit arbitrary. Now, if I read you correctly, your approach is to take the "master" to a certain point, then create virtual copies for the various softproofing options you may want to undertake based on that "master". My approach is to just about start the editing in a softproof condition (meaning I know the main output intention), knowing that I can never impair the raw file doing this, nor can I exactly print what a non-softproofed version shows me, then create virtual copies for major changes to the output intent. So the only real difference between what you do and what I do is one of timing for virtual copies. For me it is often never, for you it is always. And for others it could well be somewhere in-between. Fun stuff.

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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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jisner

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Re: Question about the Before/After menu on the Develop toolbar
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2017, 02:43:30 pm »

It is interesting to ponder "master image," but let me put my question in context.  I work at a community college that has an excellent photography department with a state-of-the-art digital print lab.  The program is somewhat behind the times, in that the instructors still preach Bridge, ACR, and Photoshop as the tools of the digital trade.

At each workstation in the digital print lab, there is a step-by-step set of instructions for "Printing from Photoshop."  Most students (if not all) follow these instructions by rote.   Honestly, they have no idea what they are doing or why they are doing it.  The instructions do not even mention soft proofing because soft proofing in Photoshop would be too hard to explain.

In recent years, an increasing number of students entering the program are Creative Cloud subscribers who use Lightroom and Photoshop at home, but since few students have home printers, they bring their files to school to print.  I should mention that about half the students are new to photography, and the other half are experienced photographers who exhibit and sell their work.  For the "pros," it's cheaper to pay tuition and get access to the print lab and liberal print quotas than it would be to buy an Eizo display and professional Epson printer for home use.

I have been working on a new set of instructions called "Printing from Lightroom" that  will be used by students who already use Lightroom for everything else, but who use Photoshop for printing.  In the instructions, I need a clear and unambiguous definition of "master photo."  I say a master photo is the photo you brought to school to print.  And I explicitly assume that students have made a significant effort to get their master photos to look the way they want them to look when printed.  The master photo represents their artistic intent; soft proofing is the process of adjusting the proof copy to resemble the master photo as closely as possible.  I realize that this sounds academic, but an academic definition is needed for an academic environment.  On the other hand, I preach what I practice, so maybe it's not all that academic after all!

I would be glad to attach the instructions.  I have learned a great deal in writing them.  As you can see from this discussion, they're still a work in progress!

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jisner

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Re: Question about the Before/After menu on the Develop toolbar
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2017, 03:46:31 pm »

For a more complete explanation, which takes some paragraphs, see page 492 of Martin Evening's Lightroom book.

We must have different editions of the book.  Mine is The Adobe Lightroom 5 Book", copyright 2013.  In my edition, the section on "Before state options" is on page 508.  I have read and re-read this section many times and am absolutely unable to understand what he is saying. 

At the beginning of the section, he writes "When the Before/After view is enabled, the Before state has options for you to choose from. When a master image is selected, the choice is between Before State and Current State.  The Before State is the same as it was previously and shows an earlier version of the photo with soft proofing turned off.  It defaults to displaying the import state, but you can update it to any state you want.  To do this, disable Soft Proofing and update the Before State with the Current State and then enable the Soft Proofing again."

I become increasingly confused as I read the first four sentences, but it's the last sentence I find truly baffling.  When you disable soft proofing, the Before menu disappears, so how can you update it?

Or, could it be that Lightroom CC has changed how Before State works?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Question about the Before/After menu on the Develop toolbar
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2017, 05:24:24 pm »

It is interesting to ponder "master image," but let me put my question in context. 

Interesting and varied context you need to deal with. Well, if it's convenient to call the version of the photo they bring in to print the "Master" photo, why not.

You may be aware that there are tremendous learning resources on this website. For 12 bucks a year your students could sign-up and access thousands of pages of material and a slew of directly relevant tutorials done by amongst the best in the field. Especially the Reichmann-Schewe videos on "Camera to Print", as well as others also focused on using LR.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Question about the Before/After menu on the Develop toolbar
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2017, 05:30:40 pm »

We must have different editions of the book.  Mine is The Adobe Lightroom 5 Book", copyright 2013. 

Yes, Mine is the LR6 edition.

See why I don't bother with all that stuff? :-) And my Catalog is kept to the minimum necessary. Sorry, I couldn't help it. Anyhow, not to be facetious, I can see where you are struggling, but I don't want to add to confusion. I'd have to get into LR and play around with these procedures to be able to give you better insight into what he is saying. Normally Martin is very clear, but I agree, this is somewhat less than self-evident.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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jisner

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Re: Question about the Before/After menu on the Develop toolbar
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2017, 06:57:20 pm »

Yes, Mine is the LR6 edition.

Ah! I just ordered the LR6 edition.   I hope it has a good explanation of Before.  Thanks for your replies.  They have been very helpful.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Question about the Before/After menu on the Develop toolbar
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2017, 07:10:49 pm »

You are welcome, glad to be helpful.

When you get the book, which I think you will not regret, read the whole story on "Before" and "Softproofing" over pages 487-492 and follow the worked examples. I think with a couple of readings it should all be clear enough. You may also be interested in his "Lightroom Transformations" book. I bought one a while back and really enjoy it - main difference is that it's not so much an application instruction book, more about applied usage of the application to various kinds of interesting editing challenges. For a college environment with at least some students interested in expanding their technical prowess it should fit nicely.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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jisner

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Re: Question about the Before/After menu on the Develop toolbar
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2017, 08:15:13 pm »

You may also be interested in his "Lightroom Transformations" book.

When I started using Lightroom, I quickly joined the "you can do everything in Lightroom" crowd.   Back then, I probably would have bought the Transformations if it had been available.  But since I discovered Tony Kuyper's TK panel I have swung back to using Photoshop for 99% of all retouching and Lightroom only for those things that are best done on raw files, like sharpening and noise reduction (and of course printing).  An advantage of using Photoshop is that you can organize dozens of retouching steps as layers and groups, making it easy to go back and fine tune any individual retouching step.
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