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Author Topic: Substrate that is equivalent if not better than Moab Slickrock Metallic Silver?  (Read 752 times)

fineartprint-nz

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Hi All :)

I am looking for a substrate that is the same (or if not better than) Moab's Slickrock Metallic Silver.

A new possible client wants to have this substrate for their artwork to be reproduced on, only thing with that is the Moab range of substrates are not available here. We are in New Zealand and the only way to get this product is to import from a distributor in Australia. So once imported after adding G.S.T. and freight charges etc. it gets a little costly. To add to that, I will be needing several different width rolls of the substrate to handle different sized reproductions etc. to minimize wastage and so on.

Our current various suppliers here provide us with substrates from these 3 main brands: Hahnemühle, Ilford and Breathing Color, so a substrate from one of these brands would be ideal. I have never seen the Moab paper mentioned above so really can't try and compare it with anything. Any help that you fine people could offer me here would be greatly appreciated...thank you.

Grant
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Ernst Dinkla

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The Silver is a very different beast from the rest of the "metallic" RC papers. It has a way more silver look and its spectral reflection is accordingly low. I have not seen or measured a similar one so far. On the other hand I doubt Moab is manufacturing RC papers like that itself. RC inkjet papers or at least the RC base without inkjet coating is usually made by the big paper manufacturers like Mitsubishi, Fuji, Felix Schoeller, etc. So I expect there should be another distributor for a similar paper.

Attached the spectral plots of several "metallic" RC papers, Red Brown lines the Silver.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Royce Howland

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I have never encountered a paper from another manufacturer that is even close to Moab's Slickrock Metallic Silver. Likely Ernst is right, and this paper is manufactured for Moab by some other company, and therefore is possibly available under another label. But the odds are good that label would be at least as obscure as Moab in terms of import availability to NZ. You won't find something like it from the big players like Hahnemuhle, Ilford or Breathing Color, as far as I know. (We print on a lot of media from big and obscure suppliers alike.)

As a side note, I've made a lot of prints on Slickrock Metallic Silver. If I'm perfectly honest, I hate it. :) We have one artist with a portfolio that looks good on this paper, so for her work it makes sense. But the spectral characteristics Ernst refers to cause this substrate looks very, very different from anything else, even the other RC metallic papers. I don't find it visually appealing in most cases. It's dim, low contrast, with a dominant blue-grey cast. Worse, it is a pain in the *** to work with, in production terms. It's thicker & heavier than most RC papers, curls more tightly and therefore is prone to a lot more feed roller scratching and head strikes while running through the printer. We've also had issues with a lot of surface flaking, defects and other flaws. As a result, we've dropped this paper from our standard stocked offerings.

There are a number of Moab papers that I like quite a lot, and use & recommend without hesitation. But Slickrock Metallic Silver is not one of them.

If your client would be willing to consider a more standard-looking RC metallic paper, I could suggest the Ilford Metallic Gloss. I prefer it to date out of the RC metallics... it has a beautiful surface, and it's pretty robust (though a bit scratch prone as with all high gloss, smooth surfaced papers).

deanwork

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It was my understanding that Mitsubishi made that and most all of the other grayish metallic rc media. Does Moab actually make or coat anything? I used to use the Photochrome version sold by Intellicoat and it was fine but it was way too expensive for what it is and scratched so easily. I did a show of very large prints on it for a show in Brazil but she scratched half of them during mounting. And if you put it behing glass it defeats the purpose. Really a pain in regard to scratching, as Royce said.

I have to say some black and white is pretty cool on it though. It is a very specific ghostly  look.  I dont think it is going to hold up well in fade tests.





uote author=Royce Howland link=topic=118833.msg986682#msg986682 date=1499440987]
I have never encountered a paper from another manufacturer that is even close to Moab's Slickrock Metallic Silver. Likely Ernst is right, and this paper is manufactured for Moab by some other company, and therefore is possibly available under another label. But the odds are good that label would be at least as obscure as Moab in terms of import availability to NZ. You won't find something like it from the big players like Hahnemuhle, Ilford or Breathing Color, as far as I know. (We print on a lot of media from big and obscure suppliers alike.)

As a side note, I've made a lot of prints on Slickrock Metallic Silver. If I'm perfectly honest, I hate it. :) We have one artist with a portfolio that looks good on this paper, so for her work it makes sense. But the spectral characteristics Ernst refers to cause this substrate looks very, very different from anything else, even the other RC metallic papers. I don't find it visually appealing in most cases. It's dim, low contrast, with a dominant blue-grey cast. Worse, it is a pain in the *** to work with, in production terms. It's thicker & heavier than most RC papers, curls more tightly and therefore is prone to a lot more feed roller scratching and head strikes while running through the printer. We've also had issues with a lot of surface flaking, defects and other flaws. As a result, we've dropped this paper from our standard stocked offerings.

There are a number of Moab papers that I like quite a lot, and use & recommend without hesitation. But Slickrock Metallic Silver is not one of them.

If your client would be willing to consider a more standard-looking RC metallic paper, I could suggest the Ilford Metallic Gloss. I prefer it to date out of the RC metallics... it has a beautiful surface, and it's pretty robust (though a bit scratch prone as with all high gloss, smooth surfaced papers).
[/quote]
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David Sutton

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Hello Grant.
For papers like Moab I'll usually import from either gicleemedia.com.au or direct from the US.
B&H, ITSupplies.com and Shades of Paper are all good.
In fact because orders may be under the $400 GST barline, it's often cheaper to import Hahnemühle and Ilford direct, though personally I don't mind paying more to shop local. Even though an order may arrive here in Oamaru quicker from the US than from Auckland. :o
If a company offers free delivery in the US, but no overseas shipping, try using YouShop. Their rates are pretty reasonable.
David
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Ernst Dinkla

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As I wrote already none of the samples that I have has the same silver look the Moab Slickrock Metallic Silver has. Subjective ranking on the most metallic appearance after the Silver; Sihl Masterclass Metallic Pearl High Gloss Photo paper 290 grams (the FujiFilm Metallic Photo RC 290 grams is probably the same but I can not find the sample) mainly because the gloss is high, after that the Ilford Metallic Glossy (GPMG) 260 grams, more grainy metal look, less gloss. After that the rest that I have in the Resin Coated Metallic map of SpectrumViz but the two Felix Schoeller types that I find the least metallic of them.

Be aware that several Pearlescent papers are called metallic, I put them in the Pearlescent map of the RC papers as that is what I see in them. Oyster pearlescent effect not the Pearl texture type that can be called Lustre as well. Yes, it is complex.

Maybe Sihl, FujiFilm or Ilford have them available as samples in NZ so you can judge yourself. Be aware that a final varnish or gloss enhancer can improve the metallic look.

BTW, That Moab Silver almost looks like some packaging materials with multiple layers to keep drinks fresh, including the rear side. Rotation gravure printing and flexo print can use inks that are quite fluid but I guess an extra transparent inkjet coating on the silver side is used to make it more suitable for inkjet. Speculative mode.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

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fineartprint-nz

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Many thanks to Ernst, Royce, deanwork & David for the fine details you added to my question.

Yes it does indeed look like the 'Moab Slickrock Metallic Silver' is in a class of its own with nothing coming even close to its Silver appearance. And with a 'spectral reflection' as low as is shown in Ernst's SpectrumViz plot that just confirms it.

I use lots of Ilford Metallic Gloss 260gsm myself and find it to be a beautiful paper and the photographers we print for on this substrate just love it too. Yes it does scratch easily so one is always very careful when working with this substrate.

I am doubting that this new prospective client who wants the Moab Silver paper (even if it is imported and costs more) will go with the Ilford Metallic Gloss but will give it a try and will definitely mention all the negatives that Royce outlined in the second paragraph of his response above, maybe that will make sense to her.

deanwork say's the following:  "I have to say some black and white is pretty cool on it though. It is a very specific ghostly  look.  I dont think it is going to hold up well in fade tests."
- can you please elaborate further on your opinion of the fade tests please? Because if I understand you correctly that the Moab silver paper may not do so well in fade tests, i.e. long term archival properties, then personally I don't want to be producing prints onto something that may not last that well. I may have misunderstood your sentence here but please just clarify that for me deanwork...thanks.

Again, thank you all for such in-depth help with my question, it is very much appreciated...cheers :)
Grant
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henrikolsen

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We've also had issues with a lot of surface flaking, defects and other flaws. As a result, we've dropped this paper from our standard stocked offerings.

I can confirm observations of a disturbing amount of surface defects on this paper on the attempts I have given it. Decided I didn't see a use for it's very special appearance, and even if so, the defects were way to many to want to work around.

I do like the Sihl Masterclass Metallic Pearl High Gloss Photo that Ernst also points to. But as noted, nowhere near the same silver look as the Moab Silver that's specifically looked for, just a more normal metallic shine, there being the best of the likes, to me - think more like (not as) cibachrome from back then... Challenge with this metallic family is, to me, it still benefits/requires a rather controlled specular/spot light to work it's best, if in flat indirect light they can appear dull(er), at least more dull/gray than a regular, non-metallic paper.
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