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Author Topic: Pentax in difficult?  (Read 2052 times)

Doug Peterson

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Re: Pentax in difficult?
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2017, 03:22:30 PM »

Addendum to the pricing I posted above, accounting for the recently announced IQ1 100mp and IQ2 80mp Summer Promo...

List Prices
$33k = XF, IQ1 100mp, Schneider 80mm LS BR lens
$36k = H6D-100c + HC 80mm lens
---
P1 is less expensive by 8%.

A refurbished IQ2 80mp, XF, and Schneider 80LS BR is $23k under that same summer promo, but there isn't a close equivalent in the Hassy line to compare it to.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Pentax in difficult?
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2017, 04:17:45 PM »

I saw that. Giving away your latest generation camera body listed at 8,000 US$ is an obvious sign that the business is going strong and/or that you picked a realstic price point in the first place.;)

But yes, welcome move. The IQ1-100 is now priced closer to its actual value, meaning the the H6D-100c falls in between the IQ1 and IQ3 in terms of capabilities.

Cheers,
Bernard
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bjanes

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Re: Pentax in difficult?
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2017, 07:24:14 PM »

True for most camera companies, but interestingly not true of Phase One whose 2016 financials were just released; revenue and profit were up year over year. Phase One has turned a profit, and increase sales every year since 2008 except for one year where sales were essentially even.

2016, 510 million DKK
2015, 413 million DKK
2014, 384 million DKK
2013, 388 million DKK
2012, 295 million DKK

1 DKK is around 0.15 USD or 0.13 Euro.

Take whatever lessons you like from that. My own lessons from that are too biased from my job to be useful here, so I'll just stick with the numbers.

Those figures show just how small the MF market is. 510 million DKK = US $76,500,000. With a list price per unit of US$38K that is 2013 units.

By contrast, the Nikon imaging group sales for the just ending FY were 383 billion yen (as reported by Thom Hogan). At 1.00 JPY (Japanese yen) = 0.008833 USD (US dollars), that corresponds to 3.38 billion USD. Nikon's figures are down, but they greatly overshadow those of Phase One.

Bill
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scyth

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Re: Pentax in difficult?
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2017, 10:11:07 PM »

Those figures show just how small the MF market is. 510 million DKK = US $76,500,000. With a list price per unit of US$38K that is 2013 units.
the numbers do include lenses, C1 for non MF uses, repairs out of warranty, etc...
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bjanes

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Re: Pentax in difficult?
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2017, 09:16:08 AM »

the numbers do include lenses, C1 for non MF uses, repairs out of warranty, etc...

Yes, I am aware of that, but I have no information on the relative proportions of the income streams you cite. However, including those streams makes the estimated number of cameras sold even smaller. You could make the denominator smaller, say $10,000 rather than $38,000 but the number of units sold is still quite small, reinforcing the view that MF is a niche market.

Regards,

Bill
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Pentax in difficult?
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2017, 09:29:41 AM »

Wondering if these numbers include aerial and other specialized applications too?

Cheers,
Bernard
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scyth

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Re: Pentax in difficult?
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2017, 11:16:30 AM »

Wondering if these numbers include aerial and other specialized applications too?

Cheers,
Bernard

in any case with every new string attached the actual number of a new (they sell old ones too themselves - that number goes into sales figures) MF backs/cameras will be smaller and smaller
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BJL

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Re: Pentax in difficult—MF unit sales numbers now and then
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2017, 12:08:00 PM »

If I recall correctly, estimated sales volume for medium format film camera was about 100,000 per year in the years just before digital started taking over. Those Phase One figures suggest a very rough estimate of around 5,000/yr now (with a wild guesstimate for Hasselblad, Pentax and Fujifilm); almost certainly more than a ten-fold drop in unit sales. Revenues and profits per company might be down by far less though with far higher prices and fewer systems on the market.
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bjanes

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Re: Pentax in difficult—MF unit sales numbers now and then
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2017, 01:31:00 PM »

If I recall correctly, estimated sales volume for medium format film camera was about 100,000 per year in the years just before digital started taking over. Those Phase One figures suggest a very rough estimate of around 5,000/yr now (with a wild guesstimate for Hasselblad, Pentax and Fujifilm); almost certainly more than a ten-fold drop in unit sales. Revenues and profits per company might be down by far less though with far higher prices and fewer systems on the market.

Film MF was relatively affordable. In the 1970's I bought a Hasselblad 500 CM with 80 and 150 mm Zeiss lenses to supplement my Nikon F equipment. I can't remember what I paid, but the equipment was easily affordable for this enthusiast level photographer. The step up in quality with negative color film was appreciable and the image in the viewfinder was impressive.

Now I wouldn't even think of buying a Phase One MF camera. IMHO it represents a very poor price-performance investment, and I would be embarrassed to be seen in public with such a camera.  It may be a reasonable choice for a very rich enthusiast or a high level pro, but not for me. If Phase is satisfied with high margins with a very expensive camera selling at low volume that is fine with me, but I question their marketing strategy.

Bill

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Rado

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Re: Pentax in difficult?
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2017, 01:38:35 PM »

So... is Pentax in difficulty?
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MattBurt

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Re: Pentax in difficult?
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2017, 02:39:36 PM »

So... is Pentax in difficulty?

I think they are, but they have been for a while now and have stayed afloat and released some compelling new products.
So yes, but will this take them down? We will have to wait and see.

In the mean time think about how much money you could save on a 645Z over those other MF systems being discussed in this thread! :)
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scyth

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Re: Pentax in difficult—MF unit sales numbers now and then
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2017, 06:08:13 PM »

If Phase is satisfied with high margins with a very expensive camera selling at low volume that is fine with me, but I question their marketing strategy.

like trying not to race to the bottom ?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Pentax in difficult?
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2017, 01:44:34 AM »

I think that Pentax would be less in difficulty with a full size 100mp sensor based true MF camera in their line up!

Cheers,
Bernard
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davidgp

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Re: Pentax in difficult?
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2017, 01:57:08 AM »

I think that Pentax would be less in difficulty with a full size 100mp sensor based true MF camera in their line up!

Cheers,
Bernard

Not sure if their lens line cover full size MF sensor...

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Pentax in difficult?
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2017, 12:12:06 PM »

Not sure if their lens line cover full size MF sensor...

Most of them do.

Cheers,
Bernard
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MattBurt

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Re: Pentax in difficult?
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2017, 03:03:50 PM »

Not sure if their lens line cover full size MF sensor...

All the 645 A and FA series do. It's the D FA ones that may not.
I'd be interested to see if they do a 100MP full size sensor too, even if I'm not likely to be able to afford one while they are new.
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davidgp

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Re: Pentax in difficult?
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2017, 03:18:02 PM »

All the 645 A and FA series do. It's the D FA ones that may not.
I'd be interested to see if they do a 100MP full size sensor too, even if I'm not likely to be able to afford one while they are new.

A while ago Sony announced their future sensors for MF. If I remember correctly, they announced a 100 MPx sensor size like the actual 645Z or Fuji GFX... and a 150 MPx full size MF


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