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Author Topic: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts  (Read 5001 times)

shadowblade

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2017, 10:48:26 AM »

I am not sure the performance would be any more reduced in the E lenses than Canon L-glass.

Nikon E Series lenses outperform both Canon and Sony, so (with an adapter) one would expect the end result to at least perform evenly, with the outdated mechanical "G" lever out of the way

Not compared to Canon L-lenses, but to native lenses on the new mirrorless mount.

The optical formulae for new mirrorless lenses may well be identical to the current crop of lenses, so image quality may be identical. But AF performance, the availability of automatic lens correction, AI-based focus modes (e.g. eye focus) are likely to be inferior to that of native lenses used without an adapter.
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shadowblade

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2017, 10:58:29 AM »

I agree, that would be Canon's worst nightmare.

Nikon's focusing its efforts on a mirrorless body, that can seamlessly integrate its E lenses going forward, would be the ideal for me. But if Sony took over, so long as they retained the Nikon staff that is responsible for their lens/AF excellence, would make no difference to me.

That would be the whole point of taking over Nikon. Nikon doesn't make sensors, and the A9's AF appears to be equal to that of the D5 at the focal lengths currently available on both systems (obviously we can't yet test how the A9 does at 400 or 500mm, although that should change by the end of the year). But it does a great job with optics - Sony's weak point - so that is the capability Sony would be buying. Even though Fujifilm has been touted as another potential buyer,  it couldn't do nearly as much with Nikon's assets as Sony could.

No way they could seamlessly integrate current lenses into a mirrorless system. At very least, they'd need to use new motors (and likely focus-by-wire) to take advantage of mirrorless cameras' ability to use PDAF and CDAF or AI-based focus at the same time for greater precision. PDAF-only lenses use motors that can make big movements quickly, but struggle with small, rapidly-repeated movements. Sony mirrorless lenses use motors that can do both. The optics can stay the same, but the mechanics would need to change. Which actually isn't a huge task, but would require users to buy new lenses for optimal performance.
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BJL

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The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts; current lenses will adapt
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2017, 11:18:22 AM »

I see no reason to fear that current lenses in Canon EF or Nikon F mount will be unusable on future EVF cameras from Canon or Nikon, even though I do expect that at some stage, both companies will adopt a new lens mount that allows them to better exploit the lens design opportunities of not having the mirror box. They will do this in the way that Canon already has with the EOS-M system: a new mount with a significantly shorter registration distance and wide enough throat that existing SLR lenses can be used perfectly well via an adaptor. With modern all-electronic coupling (as in EOS, and I believe with Nikon G-type lenses [EDIT: or is it only the even newer E lenses?], compatibility through an adaptor is a relatively simple matter; no mechanical aperture stop-down coupling is needed. Some older Nikon lenses might have issues with aperture control: hence my limitation to "current lenses" above.

This is the approach already taken by almost every camera maker in the transition: Olympus, Panasonic, Sony and Samsung (NX) along with Canon, and maybe you can count the new Hasselblad XCD lens mount too. The only camera maker that tried to use its existing SLR lens mount on a mirrorless body was Pentax with the rapidly failed K-01.

The backward compatibility problem when Canon went from FD to EF was due to the new mount having a greater registration distance (44mm vs 42mm) which ruled out adapting FD lenses, except with the constraint of losing infinity focus. That is not an issue when ditching the mirror box.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 11:32:11 AM by BJL »
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shadowblade

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2017, 11:40:51 AM »

Sure, current lenses will be usable - in the same way that current A-mount and EF-mount lenses can be used on an E-mount camera. Optically, they'd be just as good as ever. But don't bother trying to track fast or erratic action with them.
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JKoerner007

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts; current lenses will adapt
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2017, 11:42:18 AM »

They will do this in the way that Canon already has with the EOS-M system: a new mount with a significantly shorter registration distance and wide enough throat that existing SLR lenses can be used perfectly well via an adaptor. With modern all-electronic coupling (as in EOS, and I believe with Nikon G-type lenses [EDIT: or is it only the even newer E lenses?], compatibility through an adaptor is a relatively simple matter; no mechanical aperture stop-down coupling is needed. Some older Nikon lenses might have issues with aperture control: hence my limitation to "current lenses" above.

Yes, that is the takeaway here, with Nikon: the newer E lenses are the only Nikkor lenses without a mechanical lever to get in the way.

Lenses like the 400 f/2.8E FL ED, the 600 f/4E FL ED, the 28/105mm f/1.4Es, etc.

Better lenses than the G, and pretty much everything else in their class, with electronic diaphragm and no mechanical lever to deal with.

Would imagine that none of this has to do with MF glass, like Zeiss Otus, etc., which would be able to utilize any kind of adapter.

davidgp

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2017, 12:20:41 PM »

did Sony A7R2 with "on sensor AF" (not yet with in sensor AF, like Canon's) generate those ?

As far as I know or read... a6000 and now a9 are the one that present this and it is only seen in some conditions. I suppose that the case of the A9 the main problem is more AF points and less megapixeles, together with higher noise floor at base ISO (typical in sensors optimized for speed like the ones in Nikon D5 or Canon 1D X) makes this more pronounce and observable

davidgp

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2017, 12:28:15 PM »

No way they could seamlessly integrate current lenses into a mirrorless system. At very least, they'd need to use new motors (and likely focus-by-wire) to take advantage of mirrorless cameras' ability to use PDAF and CDAF or AI-based focus at the same time for greater precision. PDAF-only lenses use motors that can make big movements quickly, but struggle with small, rapidly-repeated movements. Sony mirrorless lenses use motors that can do both. The optics can stay the same, but the mechanics would need to change. Which actually isn't a huge task, but would require users to buy new lenses for optimal performance.

Well, Canon has their line of STM motors, the equivalent to the linear ones Sony is using in their lenses. Anyway, now that all new Canon cameras have sensors with dual-pixel technology, that it is basically an PDAF system on sensor, current EF lenses focus quite quickly... Canon is famous for it is AF on video, that uses this technology... and Sony is moving to a similar technology (iPhone 7 is using a sony sensor with something similar to this).

BJL

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Sure, current lenses will be usable . . . Optically, they'd be just as good as ever. But don't bother trying to track fast or erratic action with them.
AF performance of "legacy" SLR lenses on EVF cameras will depend on how good on-sensor PDAF can get. It might become perfectly good, but I can see a worst-case scenario where future development efforts go into supporting new EVF-friendly lenses with linear stepper AF motors or whatever, rather than supporting ultra-sonic (USM/Silent Wave) SLR AF motors.

I think this just means that some high end SLR models will continue to be offered during the transition, but at some stage the best AF will rely on using the main sensor (PDAF+CDAF?) and that will drive lens upgrades too. Fortunately, it seems that the new best AF motor technology for EVD cameras also works perfectly well with SLR AF systems.
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shadowblade

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AF performance of "legacy" SLR lenses on EVF cameras will depend on how good on-sensor PDAF can get. It might become perfectly good, but I can see a worst-case scenario where future development efforts go into supporting new EVF-friendly lenses with linear stepper AF motors or whatever, rather than supporting ultra-sonic (USM/Silent Wave) SLR AF motors.

I think this just means that some high end SLR models will continue to be offered during the transition, but at some stage the best AF will rely on using the main sensor (PDAF+CDAF?) and that will drive lens upgrades too. Fortunately, it seems that the new best AF motor technology for EVD cameras also works perfectly well with SLR AF systems.

Fortunately, mirrorless-friendly motors work just as well with PDAF as USM-type motors. A lens made with such motors can work just as well as one made with regular motors on an SLR, but be able to take advantage of CDAF-based or AI-based (e.g  eye focus,  facial recognition, intelligent tracking) fine-tuning on a through-the-sensor AF system. The only thing is that it would be focus-by-wire, but improving the manual focus experience with such lenses really just amounts to interface design and haptic feedback.

So, next-generation Canon lenses could easily be made to support both SLRs and mirrorless systems equally well, although they would obviously need to be built with the EF mount's 44mm flange distance in mind. Nikon could do the same with its new generation of 'E'-series lenses, too, although, lacking a credible mirrorless system of their own, they have little reason to do so. This is why Nikon would be such a valuable acquisition for Sony - take the current optical formulae,  put them into new casings with new motors to support mirrorless cameras, and they'd instantly have a comprehensive, mirrorless-ready lens lineup with very little difficulty  (to say nothing of the optical design and manufacturing experience and capability they'd also acquire for future designs). If anything, Nikon would likely be worth more as part of Sony than as an independent entity in its own right (Canon already has its own in-house capability, so wouldn't gain much by acquiring Nikon).
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JKoerner007

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This is why Nikon would be such a valuable acquisition for Sony - take the current optical formulae,  put them into new casings with new motors to support mirrorless cameras, and they'd instantly have a comprehensive, mirrorless-ready lens lineup with very little difficulty  (to say nothing of the optical design and manufacturing experience and capability they'd also acquire for future designs).

More prognostication ...

However, let's pretend this happened, Sony would do better to keep Nikon's beautiful black-and-gold FL ED lens design ... and scrap their own (f)ugly, Canon-copying, white, wanna-be design ;)

No one has uglier super-telephoto lenses than Sony. No one. (Nor less capable super-telephotos).

If they ever did acquire Nikon, they should dump their own shoddy lens casings and keep Nikon's absolutely beautiful ones.



If anything, Nikon would likely be worth more as part of Sony than as an independent entity in its own right (Canon already has its own in-house capability, so wouldn't gain much by acquiring Nikon).

Nikon is doing just fine, actually, and will likely be doing much better when they dump their unprofitable lithography business, their low-end cameras, and concentrate their efforts on the high-end of their camera/lens + other profitable business.

My own prediction is ... you will be seeing many more incredible lenses coming from them in the next few months ... as well as the D850 ... and likely a very capable mirrorless by this same time next year. And most of what they put out will be class-leading.

You act like creating a mirrorless camera is going to be "beyond Nikon," but the truth is it will prove to be a very easy deviation/amendment from what they're already superb at doing.

hogloff

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2017, 03:52:31 PM »

Go team go...go, go, go...yeah team!!!!
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shadowblade

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More prognostication ...

However, let's pretend this happened, Sony would do better to keep Nikon's beautiful black-and-gold FL ED lens design ... and scrap their own (f)ugly, Canon-copying, white, wanna-be design ;)

No one has uglier super-telephoto lenses than Sony. No one. (Nor less capable super-telephotos).

If they ever did acquire Nikon, they should dump their own shoddy lens casings and keep Nikon's absolutely beautiful ones.

Who cares what the lenses look like? It's what they can do that matters. And, without a change in their motor (i.e. completely new lenses, even if the optical formulae remain the same) there is no way the current Nikon lenses - or Canon lenses without the STM designation, for that matter - can work optimally with a mirrorless AF system.

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Nikon is doing just fine, actually, and will likely be doing much better when they dump their unprofitable lithography business, their low-end cameras, and concentrate their efforts on the high-end of their camera/lens + other profitable business.

Not according to their financials, they're not. Their high-end sales alone can't pay for future lens and camera development, and at least one aspect of their high end - the high-resolution end, held up by the D810 - won't be so high-end any more once they come out with a mere 46MP against Sony's 70-80MP and Canon's likrly 60-70MP (with the dynamic range issue having been fixed now).

Quote
My own prediction is ... you will be seeing many more incredible lenses coming from them in the next few months ... as well as the D850 ... and likely a very capable mirrorless by this same time next year. And most of what they put out will be class-leading.

What are you basing this on, other than 'you like Nikon'? Even NikonRumors isn't suggesting any of this, with the sole exception of the D820/D850.

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You act like creating a mirrorless camera is going to be "beyond Nikon," but the truth is it will prove to be a very easy deviation/amendment from what they're already superb at doing.

It took Canon and Sony - much bigger companies than Nikon - six or seven years to get where they currently are with mirrorless, and that's coming from a background in video, which Nikon lacks. What makes you think Nikon is going to get there any time soon, with absolutely no background in it and no sensor manufacturing capability of their own (i.e. they literally couldn't make a sensor with on-sensor AF even if they wanted to)? Apart from the whole 'I like Nikon so they're the best at everything and have no flaws' thing.
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JKoerner007

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Who cares what the lenses look like? It's what they can do that matters. And, without a change in their motor (i.e. completely new lenses, even if the optical formulae remain the same) there is no way the current Nikon lenses - or Canon lenses without the STM designation, for that matter - can work optimally with a mirrorless AF system.

The people shelling out $6,000-$16,000 care.

The look of Sony's super telephoto lenses is unbefitting for this kind of price tag, as is their current performance (under the helm of Sony), seeing as they're based on decades-old Minolta design/technology.



Not according to their financials, they're not. Their high-end sales alone can't pay for future lens and camera development, and at least one aspect of their high end - the high-resolution end, held up by the D810 - won't be so high-end any more once they come out with a mere 46MP against Sony's 70-80MP and Canon's likrly 60-70MP (with the dynamic range issue having been fixed now).

What are you basing your opinion on? All evidence (meaning in the form of cutting-edge cameras/lenses in the last two years) suggests Nikon does have the means to produce new and better equipment, really at a faster rate than almost anyone else to boot.



What are you basing this on, other than 'you like Nikon'? Even NikonRumors isn't suggesting any of this, with the sole exception of the D820/D850.

I am basing my opinion on the above. There have been a multitude of lenses that popped up by surprise, totally unexpected. The 105 f/1.4E, the 28mm f/1.4E, etc. I believe even the D500 was a surprise. Meanwhile, the D850 is a no-brainer that everyone is expecting.



It took Canon and Sony - much bigger companies than Nikon - six or seven years to get where they currently are with mirrorless, and that's coming from a background in video, which Nikon lacks. What makes you think Nikon is going to get there any time soon, with absolutely no background in it and no sensor manufacturing capability of their own (i.e. they literally couldn't make a sensor with on-sensor AF even if they wanted to)? Apart from the whole 'I like Nikon so they're the best at everything and have no flaws' thing.

The only reason Sony's where it is with mirrorless, is because that was their focus. Nikon has not been pursuing mirrorless. All of these companies have the means and technology to tear down the other's equipment, look at it, and build something relatively comparable.

You act like it's going to be some great mystery for Nikon to develop such a simple little tool, when the fact is Nikon has been developing and creating far more complex industrial copiers, lithography equipment, and (yes) cameras.

Shadow, wake up and smell the coffee: all companies essentially have the variations of the same thing. Sony merely turned a cute little trick by removing the mirror, which removes the shutter-sound (not sure that's a good thing, either), and it fires-off a bunch of images silently, which is then followed by a grossly-inconvenient "refractory period" where the unit is useless until it recovers. Nikon does not have this refractory problem.

Sony eye technology sounds James Bond-ish, but I'm not sure that's going to be an advantage ultimately, either, and will be wholly-dependent on a person's ocular reflexes, and many other things which will not create uniform results for all people. (What about when people have glasses/sunglasses on? :o) Personally, I think tracking is probably better-off the way it is, right now, especially with Nikon's 3-D-tracking controlled by the finger. Far better way to achieve uniform results.

The real question is, why can't you see all these cameras are essentially the same thing, and that while Sony is making improvements, they are pretty darned far away from being #1 ... apart from the 'I like Sony better than everyone else' thing?

Anyway, I didn't intend for this thread to be a Nikon/Sony debate, but a "future of current mounts" debate ... involving Canon and Nikon.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 04:54:36 PM by JKoerner007 »
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scooby70

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BJL

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The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts: Nikon's mirrorless know-how?
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2017, 10:28:47 AM »

Does anyone know what sort of AF motors are used in Nikon One system lenses? Do some have good, fast linear stepper motors? Because AFAIK, despite it market failure, the One system shows that Nikon has a fairly good set of technologies for reuse in a future EVF camera system in 24x16mm or 36x24mm format. (Not that I would go so far as to claim that Nikon has the same or greater product development resources as Canon!)

By the way, it seems to me that the main mistake with Nikon One (and more so with Pentax Q) was downsizing the format beyond the point where not enough further reduction is achieved in either cost or in the size of a camera body with adequate controls, displays and battery capacity—especially if an EVF is included. Then the main remaining advantage is some cute little lenses.
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BernardLanguillier

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Does anyone know what sort of AF motors are used in Nikon One system lenses? Do some have good, fast linear stepper motors? Because AFAIK, despite it market failure, the One system shows that Nikon has a fairly good set of technologies for reuse in a future EVF camera system in 24x16mm or 36x24mm format. (Not that I would go so far as to claim that Nikon has the same or greater product development resources as Canon!)

Yes, the Nikon 1 is the obvious proof that Nikon's issues aren't with technology, they are with marketing and product planning.

From a technology standpoint they have managed to be the very best at many of the things they tried. No need to remind the world that they invented VR and let Canon deliver the technology in usable ways. Examples abound.

Cheers,
Bernard
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NancyP

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2017, 10:24:24 PM »

The people shelling out $6K to $16K on a lens invariably use "LensCoat" neoprene wrap on the lens.  So who knows what the lens actuall looks like underneath the RealTree camo.  ::)
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Lester Davey

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2017, 04:33:23 AM »

Presumably Nikon will make two mirrorless cameras,a crop sensor camera with a new lens mount-this will be the small camera.The full frame hopefully will retain the F mount and be larger which won't be a problem since many of the lenses used on such cameras are larger anyway the size of the body is not really an issue.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2017, 05:34:54 AM »

Presumably Nikon will make two mirrorless cameras,a crop sensor camera with a new lens mount-this will be the small camera.The full frame hopefully will retain the F mount and be larger which won't be a problem since many of the lenses used on such cameras are larger anyway the size of the body is not really an issue.

Indeed. There is a small possibility that the D820 could ship in 2 versions, one EVF, one OVF. Quite unlikely though but not impossible. I would probably go with the OVF one but I am probably in the minority.

Cheers,
Bernard
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BJL

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2017, 08:55:00 AM »

Presumably Nikon will make two mirrorless cameras,a crop sensor camera with a new lens mount-this will be the small camera.
Quite likely; with al this talk of future 35mm format cameras, we have perhaps overlooked that the smaller DSLR formats format generates more sales and revenue, and their OVFs are somewhat less satisfactory, so the attraction of an EVF is even greater.
The full frame hopefully will retain the F mount ...
There is no way that Nikon (or Canon) will reuse its SLR mount, which would severely hamper design choice for some lenses. This is particularly true of F mount, which is both deeper and narrower than EF mount. Nikon will follow what has already been done by Canon (EF-M), Sony, Olympus and Panasonic.

Maybe high-end models will come with the needed mount adaptor included in the price, and some super-glue to attach it permanently, reproducing the "benefits" or persisting with the SLR mount.
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