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Author Topic: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts  (Read 4495 times)

JKoerner007

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The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« on: June 19, 2017, 05:08:51 PM »

Shadowblade brought up an interesting point on his 70-200 thread, which I felt deserved to be a whole new topic unto itself. He said,

Not the E-mount - that's a mirrorless mount that will stay around. Same with the Canon EF-M mount (18mm flange distance and 47mm throat diameter). Both are suitable for full-frame mirrorless lenses.

EF-S will almost certainly die. So will A-mount. EF and F mounts also have uncertain futures, as they will have no reason to exist once the mirror box is supplanted. The mount itself may survive, since their larger throat diameter is even better for developing lenses (particularly tilt-shifts and lenses with wide apertures) but they may no longer use the same flange distance (e.g. the sensor may be moved 18mm behind the mount instead of 44mm), rendering current lenses unusable on them.

Interesting subject.

To me, this is an important consideration in future lens investment questions, because I agree that modern camera mounts do have a questionable future, and I further agree mirrorless will eventually replace DSLRs (the same as DSLRs eventually replaced film).

Canon has proven they have no problems scrapping an entire lens line, to make room for a new mount system, leaving the owners with a suddenly-worthless lens investment. By contrast, Nikon showed consideration for the owners of its past lenses by transferring the F-Mount to the modern DSLR age, which enabled Nikonians to still make use of their lens investments on their new DSLRs.

But the question is, would Nikon do that again, especially with some of the limitations the F-mount has, now exacerbated by having to adapt to mirrorless? It's hard to say.

I can't imagine Nikon scrapping all of its modern lenses, that it's in the process of upgrading right now, and I also think the same limitations don't apply here either. (Canon's FD lenses had no AF.)

That said, I believe it is highly-likely Nikon is eventually going to announce a mount switch, when mirrorless becomes the standard (and I have no doubt it will, probably in less than 2 years).

However, I do not believe that either Canon's or Nikon's lens portfolio will become instantly "obsolete," as Canon's FD mount did. Why? Because of adapters. The ubiquity of adapters (and the fact Canon/Nikon lenses are already AF) will enable those with a considerable investment in high-end glass to continue using their lenses, even if Ca/Nikon changes (or, likely, modifies) its EF and F-Mounts. In fact, even Canon's elder F-mounts can now be used on Sony mirrorless cameras, because of adapters, which has markedly increased the value of elder FD glass.

Manufacturers would also offer a "remounting" service as well. Does anyone else see this as being an issue: The future of DSLR lens mounts?

davidgp

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2017, 05:28:40 PM »

When someone mentions that Canon left FD to create EF mount I always think the same, it allowed Canon to become the leader, even starting several years behind introducing an AF reflex system (first reflex AF systems from Minolta (that they also left the MD system behind to create the new A mount) and Nikon was in 1983, Canon released EF system in 1987). Canon did not only added the AF motors, it converted the full lens in electronic lenses... Nikon and other still used mechanical parts to open aperture or move the AF elements inside the lens (screw af lens with the motors in the camera... ). Not that if I was and FD user back them I will be happy...

Anyway, back to topic, I will not worry about for example EF lens, Canon seems to be doing a good job adapting those to the EF-M mount system, like for example the EOS M5. Like I said in other post, thanks to their dual af pixel technology, they can use traditional EF lens quite well (EF lenses are optimized for Phase Detect AF systems, contrast detect system are not good for them, not sure about new lenses with STM motors). Since the 70D all Canon cameras come with dual af pixel, so their sensors are ready to be put into a mirrorless full-frame, if they change the mount to other thing different from EF, an adaptor will work quite well.

Nikon can also do the same, I suppose it will not difficult for them to do the adaptor, they don't have to reverse engineer anything like other adaptor makers. Since they are buying sensors to Sony, they can buy those that have Phase detect pixels over them, like Olympus does. They only need to adapt their AF algorithms to this.

So, I suppose it is safe to buy into those systems, only problem will be the rumored Nikon economical problems... but I don't expect they go down the hill too quick... if they even do...

BernardLanguillier

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2017, 05:54:42 PM »

I would argue that Nikon CANNOT use the Sony sensors with on sensor AF.

There is no way they could get away with the kind of banding these sensors generate in skies or high illumination situations.

The whole web would be in fire within hours and this would be highlighted as another obvious proof of Nikon's unstoppable technological decline.

As far as the F mount's future, it is likely that it will complemented by a shorter flange mount. Regarding the F mount's limitations... well 10 years after it was described as deeply flawed and limiting Nikon is still releasing the best lenses there are from wide T/S (19mm) through stabilized pro zooms or tele zooms (70-200 f2.8 E FL).

So I see a gap btw the opinion of internet experts are the reality.

Cheers,
Bernard
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JKoerner007

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2017, 05:59:25 PM »

When someone mentions that Canon left FD to create EF mount I always think the same, it allowed Canon to become the leader, even starting several years behind introducing an AF reflex system (first reflex AF systems from Minolta (that they also left the MD system behind to create the new A mount) and Nikon was in 1983, Canon released EF system in 1987). Canon did not only added the AF motors, it converted the full lens in electronic lenses... Nikon and other still used mechanical parts to open aperture or move the AF elements inside the lens (screw af lens with the motors in the camera... ). Not that if I was and FD user back them I will be happy...

Which is why I am curious/concerned if Nikon will "totally modernize" its mount this time around.

They will have to make some kind of change ...



Anyway, back to topic, I will not worry about for example EF lens, Canon seems to be doing a good job adapting those to the EF-M mount system, like for example the EOS M5. Like I said in other post, thanks to their dual af pixel technology, they can use traditional EF lens quite well (EF lenses are optimized for Phase Detect AF systems, contrast detect system are not good for them, not sure about new lenses with STM motors). Since the 70D all Canon cameras come with dual af pixel, so their sensors are ready to be put into a mirrorless full-frame, if they change the mount to other thing different from EF, an adaptor will work quite well.

Interesting.



Nikon can also do the same, I suppose it will not difficult for them to do the adaptor, they don't have to reverse engineer anything like other adaptor makers. Since they are buying sensors to Sony, they can buy those that have Phase detect pixels over them, like Olympus does. They only need to adapt their AF algorithms to this.

I think the adapter (or, likely, a mount-changing service) will be the most likely solution.



So, I suppose it is safe to buy into those systems, only problem will be the rumored Nikon economical problems... but I don't expect they go down the hill too quick... if they even do...

It's been established that Nikon's "extraordinary losses" came from restructuring its LITHOGRAPHY business, and that mis-interpretations as to their lithography woes translating to its camera business were the result of bad reading.

Quote: "Nikon does not have a current financial problem. Anybody who can read a balance sheet can verify that."

JKoerner007

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2017, 06:07:20 PM »

As far as the F mount's future, it is likely that it will complemented by a shorter flange mount. Regarding the F mount's limitations... well 10 years after it was described as deeply flawed and limiting Nikon is still releasing the best lenses there are from wide T/S (19mm) through stabilized pro zooms or tele zooms (70-200 f2.8 E FL).

So I see a gap btw the opinion of internet experts are the reality.

True, glass-wise.

However, one limitation of the F-Mount is that its mechanics don't allow Nikon to make f/1.2 primes, like Canon can: details here.

This will likely be exacerbated once Nikon goes mirrorless; hence my curiosity (concern?) as to the future of existing F-Mount lenses ... though I believe there will be viable solutions.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2017, 07:37:11 PM »

However, one limitation of the F-Mount is that its mechanics don't allow Nikon to make f/1.2 primes, like Canon can: details here.

Well... I don't see a problem with using these legacy 1.2 lenses on current bodies.

What Nikon hasn't done is f1.2 lenses with autofocus. I am not sure whether it is the result of the F mount limitations or the result of some limitations of their AF modules.

Cheers,
Bernard
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CeeVee

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2017, 08:23:27 PM »

Seems like I heard this same argument, albeit in reverse (!), when SLRs were gaining popularity. That was the middle 60s and I was in High School.
I have both SLRs, Nikons, and a Fuji X Pro-2. Do I think OVF will push SLR off a cliff? No.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

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JKoerner007

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2017, 10:43:30 PM »

Well... I don't see a problem with using these legacy 1.2 lenses on current bodies.

Legacy f/1.2 lenses can be used with current bodies, yes ... with mirrors and a recessed sensor ... but they're manual-focus only. The rear elements of these lenses protrude greatly, however.

The point is f/1.2 AF lenses can't be developed on the F-Mount (not without a lot of cost).



What Nikon hasn't done is f1.2 lenses with autofocus. I am not sure whether it is the result of the F mount limitations or the result of some limitations of their AF modules.

I have the 50mm f/1.2 AIS, but it has no chip or automation.

The answer to the F-Mount limitation was provided in the link I offered. To quote:

  • Nikon F mount’s “throat” diameter is 44mm, whereas the Canon EF mount is larger at 54mm. That 10mm difference might seem small, but it is actually quite important when it comes to lens design. If you have been wondering why Nikon does not release fast f/1.2 primes with autofocus, while Canon has the excellent 50mm f/1.2L and 85mm f/1.2L II lenses in its stable, the answer is primarily in the limitation of the physical diameter of the Nikon F mount. It would be very cost prohibitive for Nikon to try to design f/1.2 lenses with autofocus capabilities, because of space limitations on the rear side of lenses. Such designs would have to be limited to under 60mm focal length range and even then, the CPU contacts would probably have to be put right on the rear element.

The article goes on to point out the disadvantages of Nikkor D and G lenses as well: “One of the biggest disadvantages of the Nikon F mount is the mechanical diaphragm / aperture lever that is present on most Nikon lenses ... This means that when shooting with (such levered) lenses ... the lens must physically stop down and open up every time the camera fires.”

However, many have noticed Nikon is upgrading its lenses to the E class (e.g., 400mm f/2.8E FL ED, 105 f/1.4E ED, etc.), in which Nikon is using an electromagnetic diaphragm (hence, E). These electromagnetic upgrades are now spilling into normal focal lengths, as for example the recently-introduced 28mm f/1.4E ED. Pricey, yes, but the quality and speed seems to be upgraded as well. Therefore, I personally will only be investing in the E class of lenses going forward.

On the other hand, it is likely that camera sizes will be shrinking in the future, as mirrorless development continues and lens sizes will likely follow. A modified Nikon F-Mount, with its slightly-smaller diameter, might actually prove to be more advantageous as cameras/lenses get smaller in the future.

With an adapter, older lenses would able to still be utilized, as cameras get smaller/go mirrorless, whilst newer developments are allowed for.

shadowblade

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2017, 10:48:56 PM »

Seems like I heard this same argument, albeit in reverse (!), when SLRs were gaining popularity. That was the middle 60s and I was in High School.
I have both SLRs, Nikons, and a Fuji X Pro-2. Do I think OVF will push SLR off a cliff? No.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

How many TLRs do you see these days? How many film cameras do you see? How many rangefinders, apart from Leica's legacy product (these days more a toy for rich hobbyists with a fondness for history than a professional tool).

SLRs will continue to exist in a similar way to these - as a low-volume legacy product - not as main-line cameras. I'm not talking about next year or the year after, of course - more like 10 years down the line.
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davidgp

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2017, 05:17:16 AM »

I would argue that Nikon CANNOT use the Sony sensors with on sensor AF.

There is no way they could get away with the kind of banding these sensors generate in skies or high illumination situations.

The whole web would be in fire within hours and this would be highlighted as another obvious proof of Nikon's unstoppable technological decline.

As far as the F mount's future, it is likely that it will complemented by a shorter flange mount. Regarding the F mount's limitations... well 10 years after it was described as deeply flawed and limiting Nikon is still releasing the best lenses there are from wide T/S (19mm) through stabilized pro zooms or tele zooms (70-200 f2.8 E FL).

So I see a gap btw the opinion of internet experts are the reality.

Cheers,
Bernard

As I commented in other places, Sony is already implemeting Dual Pixel technology, quite similar to the one of Canon uses, in the iPhone 7 sensor chips (http://techinsights.com/about-techinsights/overview/blog/survey-of-enabling-technologies-in-successful-consumer-digital-imaging-products/ ). The Canon 5D Mark IV or 80D that has this dual pixel af on sensor do not produce banding, and I have not hear it in the iPhone... it is just a matter of time for Sony to scale up this technology to the Full Frame sensors, like they did with BSI or Stacked CMOS sensors.

davidgp

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2017, 05:20:45 AM »

Which is why I am curious/concerned if Nikon will "totally modernize" its mount this time around.

They will have to make some kind of change ...


Well, Nikon already did, all Nikon Lenses release right now in the market are fully electronic ones (mainly), so you need a body that supports them, even the F mount it is physically the same, not all F lenses can be used in all nikon bodies and vice versa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikon_F-mount#Compatibility

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2017, 05:41:13 AM »

If/when Canon goes mirrorless, I think they will keep the EF mount; after all, they already have a small suite of MILC cameras, in the EOS M line. IMO, MILC don't have to be small, just for the sake of it. Some of their SLRs are already too small to be used with the larger lenses. So I think they are comfortable, and do not need to change mounts and introduce a new lens series.

Nikon are in the same ballpark, with the major difference that they don't have a credible small MILC system.

Both of the companies have 200 million + lenses out there, which is a big argument not to change mounts...

shadowblade

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2017, 07:26:33 AM »

If/when Canon goes mirrorless, I think they will keep the EF mount; after all, they already have a small suite of MILC cameras, in the EOS M line. IMO, MILC don't have to be small, just for the sake of it. Some of their SLRs are already too small to be used with the larger lenses. So I think they are comfortable, and do not need to change mounts and introduce a new lens series.

Nikon are in the same ballpark, with the major difference that they don't have a credible small MILC system.

Both of the companies have 200 million + lenses out there, which is a big argument not to change mounts...

They have 200 million lenses that they've already sold. In other words, that's money made in the past, not money made in the future.

Change to a new mount/flange distance more suited to mirrorless and they'll sell a whole lot more lenses to people as they are forced to change. And the lenses themselves will need an update, anyway, for improved performance with mirrorless bodies, e.g. STM motors.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2017, 09:29:51 AM »

They have 200 million lenses that they've already sold. In other words, that's money made in the past, not money made in the future.

Change to a new mount/flange distance more suited to mirrorless and they'll sell a whole lot more lenses to people as they are forced to change. And the lenses themselves will need an update, anyway, for improved performance with mirrorless bodies, e.g. STM motors.

Maybe, but... that is 200 million lenses they need to cater for. Also, if they go mirrorless with a new mount, they lose that huge legacy. Plus, those lenses are a very strong reason for users to remain in the system.

If they change mount, nothing will prevent users, both old and new, to choose Sony, or other, for instance.

JKoerner007

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2017, 09:40:12 AM »

They have 200 million lenses that they've already sold. In other words, that's money made in the past, not money made in the future.

Exactly. Canon made the change to EF mount discourteously, but (ultimately) to its profit, by forcing customers essentially to dump their FD lenses and buy EF lenses, if they wanted to stay with Canon. Nikon was not so abrupt, and yet their 'courtesy' to their customers perhaps cost them money in the long run.



Change to a new mount/flange distance more suited to mirrorless and they'll sell a whole lot more lenses to people as they are forced to change. And the lenses themselves will need an update, anyway, for improved performance with mirrorless bodies, e.g. STM motors.

That is precisely my concern investing heavy in F-Mount lenses if a mount-change is eminent.

Most likely, Nikon's movement from G lenses (mechanical lever aperture) to E lenses (electromagnetic aperture) is this solution. The G lenses (as they already make Nikon lens-use more difficult to mount-adapt to a Sony) will likely be the Nikkor lenses to go to pasture, whilst the upgraded E lenses will be much more readily-compatible.

If this hunch is correct, the G lenses will retain a 'legacy' of sorts, by being 'adapter-compatible,' whilst the upgraded/functionally-improved E lenses will inspire fresh purchase incentive.

scyth

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2017, 09:50:15 AM »

There is no way they could get away with the kind of banding these sensors generate in skies or high illumination situations.

did Sony A7R2 with "on sensor AF" (not yet with in sensor AF, like Canon's) generate those ?

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Paul2660

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2017, 09:55:22 AM »

Personally, if I was either Nikon or Canon, I would be a lot more worried about the bigger purchase picture of DSLR"s in general than the mount.

The business has changed, period.  You can only get so much new business from a older client set, net the new customers (younger photographers) have moved totally away from a DSLR environment.  The camera phone has forever changed photography, IMO far greater than anyone ever realized it.  And what the cell phone misses the action gopro type of camera is getting.  Again easier to work with, and get it to the web, done.

Take your eyes off a dedicated forum like LuLa or Getdpi, or others, walk out in world and look and see.  The only folks shooting DSLR's are either new/sport shooter (and they are paid to do it) or a few photographers who still want to use traditional methods in their work.  Methods like understanding, light, DOF, effects of aperture or shutter speeds etc. 

Just watch the news (fake or real depending on your person prefs) and look at the cameras, not too many DSLRS, mirrorless etc.

On my recent trip across the western states, most times I could count the number of photographers using a DSLR on 1 hands fingers, the vast majority of folks, were using cell phone cameras.  Some working seriously, but most just doing the selfie and moving on. You can also bet the all of those folks were just waiting for the next cell town or wifi connection to get their work on the net, then gone.  Forgotten,  no thoughts of a print anywhere and or the needs for what a good print might need. 

The average DSLR at 26MP to 50MP can get the job done, but what Nikon and Canon, Sony to some degree are feeling is a huge shift in the purchase paradigm, yes there has been a huge shift and it's not coming back anytime soon.  Don't let the fact that sites like this one have a lot of dedicated photographers using DSLR's with Canon or Nikon mounts as you in the vast minority of purchasers.  I am sure Nikon and Canon realize this and hopefully are looking elsewhere to make other products that can sustain the older run rates they were getting from DSLR sales.  In that regard, Canon is much better off than Nikon or so it would seem.

Paul Caldwell

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shadowblade

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2017, 09:58:45 AM »

More likely, the E lenses will be adapter-compatible (with reduced performance), while the G lenses won't be usable at all. You'd need an adapter anyway in order to put the lens onto a new one with a shorter flange distance (whether using the same plug/socket or not).

Of course, Sony buying out Nikon and obtaining their optics capabilities (and existing optical formulae) would make things much better for users. It would also be Canon's worst nightmare. Re-release all of Nikon's best optics with motors that work equally well with mirrorless and SLR setups. In the interim, release bodies with both E-mount and F-mount options, while current Nikon users make the switch (in the same way the original A7 bodies were supplied with a Metabones adapter).
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JKoerner007

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2017, 10:06:47 AM »

Personally, if I was either Nikon or Canon, I would be a lot more worried about the bigger purchase picture of DSLR"s in general than the mount.

The business has changed, period.  You can only get so much new business from a older client set, net the new customers (younger photographers) have moved totally away from a DSLR environment.  The camera phone has forever changed photography, IMO far greater than anyone ever realized it.  And what the cell phone misses the action gopro type of camera is getting.  Again easier to work with, and get it to the web, done.

Take your eyes off a dedicated forum like LuLa or Getdpi, or others, walk out in world and look and see.  The only folks shooting DSLR's are either new/sport shooter (and they are paid to do it) or a few photographers who still want to use traditional methods in their work.  Methods like understanding, light, DOF, effects of aperture or shutter speeds etc. 

Just watch the news (fake or real depending on your person prefs) and look at the cameras, not too many DSLRS, mirrorless etc.

On my recent trip across the western states, most times I could count the number of photographers using a DSLR on 1 hands fingers, the vast majority of folks, were using cell phone cameras.  Some working seriously, but most just doing the selfie and moving on. You can also bet the all of those folks were just waiting for the next cell town or wifi connection to get their work on the net, then gone.  Forgotten,  no thoughts of a print anywhere and or the needs for what a good print might need. 

The average DSLR at 26MP to 50MP can get the job done, but what Nikon and Canon, Sony to some degree are feeling is a huge shift in the purchase paradigm, yes there has been a huge shift and it's not coming back anytime soon.  Don't let the fact that sites like this one have a lot of dedicated photographers using DSLR's with Canon or Nikon mounts as you in the vast minority of purchasers.  I am sure Nikon and Canon realize this and hopefully are looking elsewhere to make other products that can sustain the older run rates they were getting from DSLR sales.  In that regard, Canon is much better off than Nikon or so it would seem.

Paul Caldwell

I agree and disagree.

Years ago, the average consumer "needed" a budget camera to take a photo ... but nowadays everyone has a budget- (really, mid-) level camera in their back pocket, or purse, in the form of a cell phone. No one needs budget cameras anymore. No one.

I think Nikon is responding to this reality better than Canon, quite frankly, as they have decided to remove many of their budget offerings, and (more importantly) Nikon is developing Snap-Bridge, which automatically forwards camera-taken .jpgs into the user's cell phone, wirelessly, so the user can immediately share their camera-taken images onto social media platforms. While problematic in the first iteration, Snap-Bridge is actually a genius way of solving THE main advantage of cell phones (the ability to instantly-share phone-taken images onto social media).

This "instant-share" ability cannot be over-emphasized in importance to the general consumer. No general consumer wants to purchase a color-calibrated monitor, buy expensive software, or otherwise "fiddle" with their images ... they just want to "snap-and-share," so I think Nikon's Snap-Bridge is one helluva way to (pardon the pun) "bridge" this advantage deficit in the use of a DSLR.

Beyond that, cell phones will never be able to take photos of wildlife, sports, etc., like a DSLR/Mirrorless professional camera can do. People who get serious about their photography will always have to upgrade to some kind of an authentic camera. Simple as that.

Thus the big market hole created by cell phones is only the entry-level market. More people are getting born every day, and when they grow up they will still have to purchase authentic cameras to be able to take serious-level sports/wildlife images. They just no longer need budget cameras to take snapshots of themselves, their friends, or family. That market is indeed dead.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 10:10:25 AM by JKoerner007 »
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JKoerner007

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Re: The Future of Canon EF and Nikon F Mounts
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2017, 10:23:19 AM »

More likely, the E lenses will be adapter-compatible (with reduced performance), while the G lenses won't be usable at all. You'd need an adapter anyway in order to put the lens onto a new one with a shorter flange distance (whether using the same plug/socket or not).

I am not sure the performance would be any more reduced in the E lenses than Canon L-glass.

Nikon E Series lenses outperform both Canon and Sony, so (with an adapter) one would expect the end result to at least perform evenly, with the outdated mechanical "G" lever out of the way.



Of course, Sony buying out Nikon and obtaining their optics capabilities (and existing optical formulae) would make things much better for users. It would also be Canon's worst nightmare. Re-release all of Nikon's best optics with motors that work equally well with mirrorless and SLR setups. In the interim, release bodies with both E-mount and F-mount options, while current Nikon users make the switch (in the same way the original A7 bodies were supplied with a Metabones adapter).

I agree, that would be Canon's worst nightmare.

Nikon's focusing its efforts on a mirrorless body, that can seamlessly integrate its E lenses going forward, would be the ideal for me. But if Sony took over, so long as they retained the Nikon staff that is responsible for their lens/AF excellence, would make no difference to me.
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