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Author Topic: Paper similar to FujiFlex Supergloss??  (Read 1104 times)

stockjock

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Paper similar to FujiFlex Supergloss??
« on: June 13, 2017, 03:02:55 PM »

A local landscape photographer still prints using film and traditional wet chemistry.  His prints on FujiFlex Supergloss are stunning.  Because of that I had some proofs done at Metal and Paper on FujiFlex Supergloss and the high gloss surface with no gloss differential or bronzing does provide a terrific depth and impact to the prints.  When I print on something like the Epson Metallic Photo Paper Glossy I get a similar depth and lack of gloss differential but I'm not fond of the pearlescent quality and color cast for most of my work.  I've tried papers like the Ilford Smooth High Gloss or the Canson Photo HighGloss Premium RC 315 and they provide the depth and lack of color cast but with significant gloss differential and some bronzing.  I would have said that gloss differential was simply a fact of life for pigment printers but it is so significantly reduced on the Epson Metallic Photo Paper Glossy that I feel like there should be a solution I haven't found.  The traditional glossy inkjet papers like the  Red River UltraPro Gloss 2.0 and similar surfaces aren't providing what I am looking for.

Anybody have any suggestions for a good alternative to the FujiFlex Supergloss for pigment printers that doesn't have the pearlescent quality and color cast of the metallic papers and that minimizes the gloss differential and bronzing of the glossy inkjet papers I've tried?  Or is the problem with my Canon iPF8400?
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howardm

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Re: Paper similar to FujiFlex Supergloss??
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2017, 05:52:57 PM »

you may want to check out the Mitsubishi Pictorico product line.

http://www.mitsubishiimaging.com/PDFs/Pictorico-brochure-9-10.pdf

Wayne Fox

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Re: Paper similar to FujiFlex Supergloss??
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2017, 09:04:25 PM »

It's pretty hard to duplicate Fuji Flex super gloss.  However, most landscape photographers are face mounting their fujiflex prints, and I've found that facemounting Epson semi-matte comes pretty close.

I"ve been wanting to try face mounting the pictorico, but I need to recheck ... I think they are loaded with OBA's. Hopefully Ernst has them in his database.

howardm

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Re: Paper similar to FujiFlex Supergloss??
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2017, 07:26:28 AM »

you mean the Semi-Matte Proofing Paper?

Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Paper similar to FujiFlex Supergloss??
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2017, 08:20:49 AM »

It's pretty hard to duplicate Fuji Flex super gloss.  However, most landscape photographers are face mounting their fujiflex prints, and I've found that facemounting Epson semi-matte comes pretty close.

I"ve been wanting to try face mounting the pictorico, but I need to recheck ... I think they are loaded with OBA's. Hopefully Ernst has them in his database.

One of the two in the screengrab I guess. One PET film base, the other RC paper, both with OBA content and I have no idea how they behave in face mounting. The way they bond and whether the OBA is going faster at the edges than in the center. A problem that happens from time to time even with Diasec.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Paper similar to FujiFlex Supergloss??
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2017, 11:45:52 AM »

you mean the Semi-Matte Proofing Paper?
no, Epson Premium Semi-matte RC paper.  I've also face mounted several with Epson Premium Photo Paper Glossy.  End results visually are identical, as the face mounting eliminates all characteristics of the matt finish.

I use the semi matte because it was recommended by Dano at epson.  I really didn't get into why he recommended it over the Glossy.  It could have to do with improved integrity of the bond between the emulsion, paper backing and adhesive.  While I like the results I"m getting, I'm do have a little concern with this aspect in the long term.  I have an image that is in a pretty exposed position (window, a few hours of direct sun a day, more heat build up that is probably good for the print).  I'm watching it closely to see if there are any signs of this.

Because of the difference between chemical photo papers and inkjet pigment papers, this bond isn't an issue on the chemical prints. But then you get into longevity discussions.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 09:06:50 PM by Wayne Fox »
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stockjock

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Re: Paper similar to FujiFlex Supergloss??
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2017, 07:30:52 PM »

It's pretty hard to duplicate Fuji Flex super gloss.  However, most landscape photographers are face mounting their fujiflex prints, and I've found that facemounting Epson semi-matte comes pretty close.

I"ve been wanting to try face mounting the pictorico, but I need to recheck ... I think they are loaded with OBA's. Hopefully Ernst has them in his database.

I can see why facemounting the FujiFlex would work well and I imagine it would have a huge WOW factor but the fine art print market I'm hoping to target is quite resistant to facemounted or metal prints. 

Which Pictorico product were you thinking of?  Those papers seem to be quite hard to find.  I wonder if Mitsubishi is abandoning the retail market, at least in the US?

I have stumbled upon one paper that comes close to providing the whiteness, depth, minimal gloss differential and bronzing that I want.  It is the Inkpress Metallic Glossy 300 but that is a discontinued paper and it doesn't really make sense to me to invest in it if there won't be any available in 6 months.  Also, that paper has a very soft and easily scratched surface and it is loaded with even more OBA's than most metallic papers. 

Also, I assume you are talking about facemounting the Epson Proofing White Semimatte Inkjet Paper because of its very smooth surface and lack of OBA's?  I think that is a nice paper for run of the mill printing.  I just tried the Epson Standard Proofing Paper Premium 200 GSM.  That has a very nice low sheen luster/satin surface with excellent print characteristics.  It is loaded with OBA's and is much whiter than the Semimatte.  I've ordered a roll of the 250 GSM version to see if that has a more acceptable hand feel.  Both of those papers print really well with on the Canon iPF8400 without custom profiles.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Paper similar to FujiFlex Supergloss??
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2017, 08:44:42 PM »

I guess I'm puzzled why your clients would object to face mounted prints, and yet not object to a super high gloss FujiFlex print.  The print has to be protected somehow.

My preferred print is Epson Legacy Baryta mounted to diBond and then glazed with a cloth liner separating the print from a piece of anti-reflective TruLife acrylic, or even TruVue Museum Glass or a piece of Groglass ArtGlass.  The anti reflective property allows the surface of the print to dominate and you get crisp vibrant colors with great detail.

As I said before, no I do not use the Epson Proofing White Semimatte.  I use Epson Premium Semi-Matte.  So far it's the best bond I've been able to get and allow's me to get a look very much like the fujiflex when face mounted, but because it's high quality ink jet I have more gamut, smoother transitions, more accurate colors, and better detail, and inkjet has proven superior to chemical photographs in every longevity test out there.

stockjock

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Re: Paper similar to FujiFlex Supergloss??
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2017, 11:53:51 PM »

I guess I'm puzzled why your clients would object to face mounted prints, and yet not object to a super high gloss FujiFlex print.  The print has to be protected somehow.

My preferred print is Epson Legacy Baryta mounted to diBond and then glazed with a cloth liner separating the print from a piece of anti-reflective TruLife acrylic, or even TruVue Museum Glass or a piece of Groglass ArtGlass.  The anti reflective property allows the surface of the print to dominate and you get crisp vibrant colors with great detail.

As I said before, no I do not use the Epson Proofing White Semimatte.  I use Epson Premium Semi-Matte.  So far it's the best bond I've been able to get and allow's me to get a look very much like the fujiflex when face mounted, but because it's high quality ink jet I have more gamut, smoother transitions, more accurate colors, and better detail, and inkjet has proven superior to chemical photographs in every longevity test out there.

Your preferred framing method aligns well with the demands of the classic fine art market.  I suspect the objection to facemounted or metal prints has more to do with the fact that they are typically displayed borderless/unframed.  Is there a reason you have standardized on the Epson Legacy Baryta?  In my tests the Platine seemed to have a little less gloss differential although that is probably irrelevant once the print is glazed.

Sorry for the confusion about the different Semi-Matte papers.  I hadn't tried the Premium Semi-Matte because it doesn't come in a 17" roll but the sale prices on the 24" rolls are so low I just ordered one to try out. 

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mearussi

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Re: Paper similar to FujiFlex Supergloss??
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2017, 11:18:58 AM »

I face mounted a lot of the Ilford polyester super gloss when it first came out without problem so I assume any similar paper would work as well.
Even though Ilford no longer offers it, there are still several companies that still do (I haven't tried either):

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/745904-REG/Pictorico_PPF150_2439_2_PRO_Hi_Gloss_White_Film.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/532525-REG/Canon_1086V594_Universal_White_Film_for.html
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stockjock

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Re: Paper similar to FujiFlex Supergloss??
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2017, 03:49:10 PM »

I face mounted a lot of the Ilford polyester super gloss when it first came out without problem so I assume any similar paper would work as well.
Even though Ilford no longer offers it, there are still several companies that still do (I haven't tried either):

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/745904-REG/Pictorico_PPF150_2439_2_PRO_Hi_Gloss_White_Film.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/532525-REG/Canon_1086V594_Universal_White_Film_for.html

I have tried the Ilford Smooth High Gloss which I believe is probably exactly the same as the other products you are mentioning.  And I can imagine it would be very well suited to face mounting.  But it has a lot of gloss differential which is unacceptable for how I want to use it.  One of the things I find interesting about the Epson Metallic Gloss paper is that the surface has very little gloss differential and the appearance of depth is quite appealing.  If only they didn't have color cast and were more archival. 
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Stephen Ray

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Re: Paper similar to FujiFlex Supergloss??
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2017, 07:11:38 PM »

You might try Fujifilm's option to their own, older product. JetFlex has been around for years now and it does mount the same as their older film.

Link to B&H for Fujifilm Jetflex

I hope this helps.
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stockjock

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Re: Paper similar to FujiFlex Supergloss??
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2017, 10:54:29 PM »

You might try Fujifilm's option to their own, older product. JetFlex has been around for years now and it does mount the same as their older film.

Link to B&H for Fujifilm Jetflex

I hope this helps.

The Fujifilm JetFlex does look very interesting.  At $430 a roll it is a little expensive to experiment with.  I couldn't find a source for samples.  I sent Fuji and email but it doesn't seem to be a well supported product on their website. 
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Paper similar to FujiFlex Supergloss??
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2017, 12:18:29 AM »

Your preferred framing method aligns well with the demands of the classic fine art market.  I suspect the objection to facemounted or metal prints has more to do with the fact that they are typically displayed borderless/unframed.  Is there a reason you have standardized on the Epson Legacy Baryta?  In my tests the Platine seemed to have a little less gloss differential although that is probably irrelevant once the print is glazed.
The unframed concept says a lot.  I myself am resisting that concept so far.

I didn't see much difference between the two papers printed, both are very nice.  To me the platine was even more fragile and subject to marring than the baryta (both are delicate), the Baryta seemed a little closer to Exhibition Fiber which I do like the texture of.  The Platine has the advantage of no OBA's, but the OBA content of the Baryta was an improvement over the exhibition fiber.
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