X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio

[Ben Rubinstein]

I have been informed that there is as yet no AC adaptor for the X1D? Is that correct? That's a deal killer. So is using a FP shutter (vibration) on the Fuji if the electronic shutter is too slow for our uses. I think that it is becoming apparent that these systems are too young for consideration at this present time.

Technical camera solutions and specifically the new iXR system with its relative simplicity, electronic shutter with extended lifetime and superior lenses are of interest however they are a significant jump in budget which has to be considered. It is also a brand new system which is always a consideration.

Yesterday was a nightmare, the powers that be are demanding a 'concrete' budgetary estimate (whatever that is  for a higher resolution system. I don't have an answer today. Literally. We are so close to the finest cutting edge of technology here that the options are either too new, too unreliable, unsuitable for a high volume setup or rather expensive. That is before you get into sensor limitations. I just don't have an answer today. A few months from now I will have the chance to give an educated decision. The current time tested solutions, MFDB's on DSLR's are not an option for us due to our volume from our own experience.

[scyth]

I'm afraid that sensors of that size do not begin to be sufficient for our needs.

how does the sensor size affects you ? it is not an old Canon sensor - no banding in deep shadows when pushed ... works fast, cheap (buy a dozen), no vibrations, big jump in resolution (80mp from 36mp), it is dSLM - mount any lens u want... has AC power adapter too

[Ben Rubinstein]

how does the sensor size affects you ? it is not an old Canon sensor - no banding in deep shadows when pushed ... works fast, cheap (buy a dozen), no vibrations, big jump in resolution (80mp from 36mp), it is dSLM - mount any lens u want... has AC power adapter too

Let me do some research. On paper it is actually an interesting solution for one of our copy stations. We would need to change the lighting of course. If it can shoot and process the file ready to shoot within 3 seconds, provide 60+ megapixels of resolution with accurate colour and superior tonality, I could be persuaded to look into either the Oly or Pentax K1 as a solution for a specific project that is causing me headaches at present.

[Ben Rubinstein]

I'm currently downloading the files from this comparison:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=pentax_k1&attr13_1=canon_eos5dsr&attr13_2=nikon_d810&attr13_3=oly_em5ii&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=100&attr16_1=100&attr16_2=100&attr16_3=200&attr126_0=2&attr126_3=2&normalization=full&widget=1&x=0.5787503664039937&y=-0.1836417618008543

The key here is detail rather than just size of course. The Pentax is a cleaner file but doesn't resolve particularly better than our current D810, the Canon is bigger but I'm not fully persuaded that there is that much more detail resolved and the Oly is just a blurry mess in comparison.

Including the Fuji GFX to the comparison.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=pentax_k1&attr13_1=canon_eos5dsr&attr13_2=nikon_d810&attr13_3=fujifilm_gfx50s&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=100&attr16_1=100&attr16_2=100&attr16_3=100&attr126_0=2&attr126_3=2&normalization=full&widget=1&x=0.5658820336923192&y=-0.1900310943933952

I'm going to uprez the Pentax MS file to match the Canon and Fuji files (when they finish downloading) and compare. I've got a feeling there's not going to be all that much difference. Interesting.

[Ben Rubinstein]

Just realised that my CS6 at home won't open all the files and neither will C1 9 which is all I've got at home. Quick download of trials then I'll be able to see the RAWs.

edit, that was silly, C1 won't read the Fuji files will they. 

[scyth]

The Pentax is a cleaner file but doesn't resolve particularly better than our current D810

D810 is a mess of chroma aliasing vs Pentax

[Ben Rubinstein]

Just realised that my CS6 at home won't open all the files and neither will C1 9 which is all I've got at home. Quick download of trials then I'll be able to see the RAWs.

edit, that was silly, C1 won't read the Fuji files will they. 

Hard to tell till you do the raw processing yourself of course. Converting to DNG's and wishing I could do this in C1 which has very impressive colour moire correction.

[scyth]

the Oly is just a blurry mess in comparison.

you did not get the E-M1 II raw file (the latest model with 20mp Sony sensor) - you get the old one E-M5 II raw !!!

note that dpreview did not post multishot from E-M1 II there and I do not suggest to use E-M5 II - older sensor, way less resolution (in multishot mode) and slow processing in camera

[Ben Rubinstein]

you did not get the E-M1 II raw file (the latest model with 20mp Sony sensor) - you get the old one E-M5 II raw !!!

note that dpreview did not post multishot from E-M1 II there

Fair enough. I'll wait till I can compare.

Big news incidentally for me, C1 will load a DNG made from the Fuji GFX file. It has no presets but we make our own ICC profiles and curves anyway. That is indeed very interesting! Allows us a level playing field for testing.

[scyth]

C1 which has very impressive colour moire correction.

that moire correction in C1 is simply a desaturation... you are not seriously considering that for archival repro work, when moireless (color-wise) solutions available !

[scyth]

C1 will load a DNG

C1 greatly improved DNG support in recent versions (v10.x) , but AFAIK yet it still attempts to treat converted DNG files differently from regular raw files (like with White Balance application, etc) ... one small step left for P1 to fix

[Ben Rubinstein]

that moire correction in C1 is simply a desaturation... you are not seriously considering that for archival repro work, when moireless (color-wise) solutions available !

I'm not seriously considering anything other than seeing the files for myself and drawing conclusions based on the files themselves.

[scyth]

Fair enough. I'll wait till I can compare.

I think Imagine Resource site has multi shot raw from E-M1 II with resolution target

[scyth]

seeing

seeing is believing (c)

[Ben Rubinstein]

Initial findings using the adobe raw engine.

Pentax noticeably superior to Nikon. Pentax (when uprezzed) resolves less detail than canon but due to aliasing not canon does not win with necessarily usable detail. Fuji trumps the Canon. Considerably better resolving detail, sharpness and control of aliasing. For 36 megapixels the Pentax is the best solution but I'm not sure it reaches the detail of the 50 megapixel sensors.

Capture One results when my headache goes away.

[Ben Rubinstein]

Then do the EM1-II using the IR test chart and hope they use the same chart for say the Canon so I can run a comparison.

Still can't get over the difference between the canon and fuji. Numbers really aren't everything are they?

[scyth]

Then do the EM1-II using the IR test chart and hope they use the same chart for say the Canon so I can run a comparison.

Still can't get over the difference between the canon and fuji. Numbers really aren't everything are they?

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-e-m1-ii/olympus-e-m1-ii-image-quality.htm
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-pen-f/olympus-pen-fTECH2.HTM - this one is Olympus Pen F which like E-M1 II also with 20mp multi-shot, but E-M1 II is the camera to get vs Pen F simply because it is the top line in Olympus stable

PS: make sure to see where IR talks about 50mp OOC JPG (which is different and less detailed vs off camera conversion from the full 80mp multishot raw)

[Ben Rubinstein]

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-e-m1-ii/olympus-e-m1-ii-image-quality.htm
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-pen-f/olympus-pen-fTECH2.HTM - this one is Olympus Pen F which like E-M1 II also with 20mp multi-shot, but E-M1 II is the camera to get vs Pen F simply because it is the top line in Olympus stable

PS: make sure to see where IR talks about 50mp OOC JPG (which is different and less detailed vs off camera conversion from the full 80mp multishot raw)

Downloading raw from the Oly, Fuji and canon.

[Ben Rubinstein]

Uprezzed the Canon and Fuji to match the Oly file. Oly doesn't begin to compete. Looks like a soft uprez in comparison to the 50 megapixel files. Certainly not close to a real 50 megapixels nevermind 80. Fuji still considerably better than the Canon.

[Joe Towner]

I'll say this, if you're a dealer and don't use your actual name, don't have contract info in your profile or signature, and say to email info@ for help, don't bother.

I'm not sure that up-resing the multishot 35mm products is really fair.  It's creating information, and even with a multishot setup, it's faking it.  Real details require real pixel wells.

The DTDCH setup is the pre-built, supported as a package that is hard to compete with.  That it plugs into your current workflow makes it that much better.  Yes, you could recreate it to some effect with 35mm gear, but what are you really saving?  You could also build a motorized base and move the subject around and stitching those photos.  You could build a rig with 4 of the Nikon D810's and sync shoot them & stitch those files.  You could do a large format lens and a sliding back that would again need stitching.

All of the rig & stitching can be done with the IQ 100mp as well, so why not start there?  Get a price on the full DTDCH iXR with the lighting, add in 2 top end workstations with 5k monitors & 100TB of storage.  See what push back you get from that cost.  Yes, it's the Rolls Royce option, but it'll give you a starting point.  Price adverse? Try with the 50/60/80mp options and upgrade the back in a year or two once they have some experience in the differences.

Yes, there will be higher MP backs in the 33x44 size relatively soon, but I wouldn't wait for them.  The larger backs will be the current 100mp chip for a while, and you should be ready to ask at what point you'll need to reshoot subjects due to higher MP & quality being available.  The cost of reshooting in a year or two because you can do higher resolution can quickly make up for the larger investment now.