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Author Topic: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers  (Read 4526 times)

benmarcin

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Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« on: June 10, 2017, 10:39:03 AM »

I have an Epson 9800 that has been a sturdy and reliable printer for eleven years. Given it's age, and the increasingly frequent power cleanings that I've had to run (along with having to set the platen gap at its widest setting to avoid black marks), I'm thinking that a new 44" printer is on the horizon. In the past, the Epson line of wide-jet printers was considered to be the clear choice for discriminating photographers. However, I am hearing that some of the newer Canon printers have caught up and are actually easier to maintain. From the research I've done, it looks like either the Canon Image ProGraf-4000 or the Epson P9000 printer would be the best candidates for eventually replacing my 9800. I was wondering if anyone out there has any experience with the Canon 4000 and could offer me a comparison to the Epson P9000? I am aware of the basic differences/issues in replacing the print heads. While reliability and ease of maintenance will be a major factor, print quality is my main concern. I print primarily color photographs. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

Ben
www.benmarcinphotos.com
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2017, 11:09:11 AM »

If you read my reviews of the Canon Pro-2000 and Epson SC-P5000 printers you will have insight into the print qualities of the Pro-4000 and the SC-P9000, insofar as the 44-inch printers  for the same model line from the same manufacturer share the same technology, same inks, same printhead as found in their 24-inch or 17-inch models. You may also wish to read reviews done by Northlight Images (Keith Cooper) and OnSight (Scott Martin). The main difference between these high-end Canon and Epson models is that Epson comes with Orange and Green inks which provide for a wider colour gamut than available from the Canon printers, as tested on several PK-luster-type papers, however not all of that extra gamut is always usable for all photos - it depends on the photo.

I recently did another test comparison of the colour appearance of Canon Pro-1000 versus Epson SC-P800 versus Epson SC-P5000 using a very colourful photo drawing on a wide variety of colours, printed on Hahn Photo Rag Baryta, and honestly I'd be very hard put to see a telling difference between them. But I have also printed photos wherein a narrow slice of highly saturated yellow-green gamut printed more accurately from the Epson SC-P5000 because of its wider gamut in those areas of the colour spectrum.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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benmarcin

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2017, 11:26:37 AM »

Thanks, Mark. I found your reviews and will read them as well as the others you referred to.

If anyone else has any experience with the Canon 4000 or Epson P9000, I'm all ears.
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tonyrom

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2017, 03:03:14 PM »

hi Ben, I use the P7000(24" version of the 9000) and I am quite pleased with the prints.  The two additional colors (Orange/Green) over the P6000/P8000 can be noticeable.  I used to have the P6000 and for various reason, Epson gave me a refund(their customer service is excellent).  I purchased the 7000 and for some prints, the colors we just that much better.  Mark has shown all the technical details with regards to the color space, so I won't go into it any further.  Just wanted to share that I feel the impact on the two additional colors makes a difference. 

-tony
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enduser

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2017, 08:40:25 PM »

I would definitely include the HP DesignJet Z3200 Photo Printer in your list of possibles.
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Atlex

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2017, 03:29:20 PM »

The differences really depends on what you're printing.  Canon did update their models from the ground up and added features that Epson doesn't even have.  However Epson has some features that Canon doesn't have, so this is where we find out what you print and on what media, how much printing you'd be doing to provide our suggestion of which model would work best for you.

They are both great printers and Epson has updated their print head so it doesn't clog as easily along with a built in timer that can be changed at any time to help maintain the head properly.  Canon went from 2 print heads (x100-x400 series) and now has a single, larger head with more nozzles.

Canon and HP have the same print head technology and the Z3200 is one of the top models to compete against the new Epson and Canon.

Atlex.com
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benmarcin

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2017, 06:13:48 PM »

Dear Atlex,

I print large color photographs on Epson Hot Press Bright, 30x40", 40x50", etc. I sometimes mix things up but HPB is my go-to paper. You can get an idea of what I print here: www.benmarcinphotos.com.

Thanks for the info.

Ben
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Atlex

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2017, 11:10:01 AM »

Ben,

So, either model would work for your printing application.  If you're not doing much printing per week, we'd recommend the Canon series as the print head technology works well with not being used a lot (and you can use a lot as well with minimal issues).  Epson would need to have some printing per week and the timing feature that was added to the P series helps to keep their head clean from clogging (been doing better than the previous series so far).  If you'd be doing a decent amount of printing, you can also go with Epson.

The great feature on the Canon Pro is that they made their roll feature an automatic loading option now as opposed to manually feeding it and having the printer make sure it's straight (like Epson).  If it's crooked, the printer will automatically adjust it upfront, so less handling fine art media (even photo and canvas) when loading into the printer.  Still need to manually feed sheets on both (technically all large format printers).  Epson still has the spindle-less feature which is great too.  You have more media settings on Canon as well as being able to create Media Types yourself with Canon's Media Configuration Tool (MCT).

Epson media will work on Canon and vice versa, just need to select the closest media type and setting on the printer.  Also, you can always get a custom profile for the media to match the ink of the printer for best quality.

Atlex.com
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deanwork

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2017, 03:16:25 PM »

Ben,

So, either model would work for your printing application.  If you're not doing much printing per week, we'd recommend the Canon series as the print head technology works well with not being used a lot (and you can use a lot as well with minimal issues).  Epson would need to have some printing per week and the timing feature that was added to the P series helps to keep their head clean from clogging (been doing better than the previous series so far).  If you'd be doing a decent amount of printing, you can also go with Epson.


We still can't make any decisions about longevity because Wilhelm never released his final tests of the new Epson ink beyond his "preliminary" results that amount to nothing but marketing non-sense for Epson. And Cannon confused the picture for themselves by suggesting on their own website that their new inkset  had actually gone backwards to achieve some unknown gamut increase ( that many of us couldn't care less about ) to hit more Pantone hues. So The Canon Wilhelm tests were never released either but Aardenburg suggests so far they did go backward in longevity. These factors  combined with the continued clogging nozzle issues with Epson and people reporting that the head design is essentially same ,  encouraged me to but another HpZ which I did last week with a good dependable warranty for $3,000.00 and free shipping. I wish Sony would get into the printer business. Then we would see some real innovation maybe.






canvas) when loading into the printer.  Still need to manually feed printers).  Epson still has the spindle-less feature which is great too.  You have more media settings on Canon as well as being able to create Media Types yourself with Canon's Media Configuration Tool (MCT).

Epson media will work on Canon and vice versa, just need to select the closest media type and setting on the printer.  Also, you can always get a custom profile for the media to match the ink of the printer for best quality.

Atlex.com
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benmarcin

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2017, 03:26:46 PM »

Thanks, Deanwork.

Should be interesting to see how your HP printer works out - give it a year, I guess. I'm primarily concerned with print quality,  although reliability is a factor. I also have an Epson 3880 and I believe that the ink-switching issue on the newer Epsons aren't as bad as they are on my older 9800. I talked to a service tech the other day who offered that her fine-art photography customers were almost exclusively using Epson printers whereas her Canon customers were coming from the more commercial printing fields like signage, etc. On the other hand, a paper specialist I talked to said that he felt that the Canons were now as good as the Epsons when it came to print quality. Ultimately, I will have to choose a photograph and find a way to get it printed on both the Canon 4000 and the Epson P9000 and make a judgement from there.
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deanwork

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2017, 06:25:42 PM »

Actually the old 9800s and 9880s were quite reliable in most respects , the ink switching was real waste though. There are a lot of people doing high end gallery work on the Canons and hp machines. They don't have the gamut of the orange and green Epson but I've never needed it. I have never had a complaint from a customer about not being able to hit a specific color. The z3200s with the chromaticed equals the gamut of the 8300-8400 Canons. My z3100 does not have the improved red but it still runs the same as always after 10 years of professional use. Besides the red the other reason I wanted the z3200 was to do digital negatives with the alternative process neg workflow that has been worked out by the guy Angel in Spain, and of course the permanence is off the charts. Hp is horrible about promoting themselves to artists and art schools. Canon is not much better. Epson has excellent promotional capability and are very savvy in getting their products noticed. And most of us started our work with them long ago and a lot of people fear change, for whatever reasons. Main thing is whatever you choose, is to stay in warranty as long as possible and figure the cost of a good warranty as  a necessary ingredient in your long term sanity.






Thanks, Deanwork.

Should be interesting to see how your HP printer works out - give it a year, I guess. I'm primarily concerned with print quality,  although reliability is a factor. I also have an Epson 3880 and I believe that the ink-switching issue on the newer Epsons aren't as bad as they are on my older 9800. I talked to a service tech the other day who offered that her fine-art photography customers were almost exclusively using Epson printers whereas her Canon customers were coming from the more commercial printing fields like signage, etc. On the other hand, a paper specialist I talked to said that he felt that the Canons were now as good as the Epsons when it came to print quality. Ultimately, I will have to choose a photograph and find a way to get it printed on both the Canon 4000 and the Epson P9000 and make a judgement from there.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2017, 08:00:56 PM »

.............. along with a built in timer that can be changed at any time.............
Atlex.com

Where is this accessed in the driver?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2017, 08:06:27 PM »


 Ultimately, I will have to choose a photograph and find a way to get it printed on both the Canon 4000 and the Epson P9000 and make a judgement from there.

I've done that umpteen times between the Epson SC-P800, Epson SC-P5000, Canon Pro-1000 and Canon Pro-2000, which covers the technologies of the Canon Pro-4000 and the Epson SC-P9000. Quite frankly, for most photos you'd be hard pressed to see any significant difference of results attributable to the printers. The main determinants of print quality are fist and foremost good image preparation, accompanied by good colour management and high quality papers.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Christopher

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2017, 06:48:31 PM »

Any recent data on longevity? This might be way more important than a tiny bit of gamut difference. Any news on these new ink sets ?


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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2017, 07:38:29 PM »

No - none that I am aware of.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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kevinmcdnyc

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2017, 04:52:57 AM »

The lack of ink longevity numbers from Canon is a bit shocking at this point.  These printers has be out for over a year.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2017, 08:48:35 AM »

The lack of ink longevity numbers from Canon is a bit shocking at this point.  These printers has be out for over a year.

Well, let me put it this way: one gets less shocked the more one is familiar with the "culture" of the industry, and it's not only Canon. They shoot themselves in the feet by not being more transparent, because then people would have a natural tendency to suspect the situation is worse than it may be in reality. This is so obvious to me, it perplexes me as to why it isn't at least as obvious to them. But this is how it is, and perhaps I shouldn't be perplexed - I recall back some 45 years ago when I was an advisor to a development ministry in a developing country I opened "Secret Files" that contained nothing but newspaper articles, while I found really confidential papers of the institution I was advising being used in the local food market for wrapping fish and chips. Go figure!  :)
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MHMG

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2017, 10:22:46 AM »

The lack of ink longevity numbers from Canon is a bit shocking at this point.  These printers has be out for over a year.

Aardenburg has three media in light fade testing printed with a Canon Pro-1000 printer using Canon's latest Lucia Pro-11 ink set (same ink set used in the Pro-2000 and Pro-4000). One paper is an OEM RC photo paper, another is a fine art matte paper, and the third is a Fine Art glossy paper.  They are paired together with three of the same media printed with Epson's latest UCHD inks, and one paper was further printed with the older Lucia EX pigmented ink set as well using a Canon iPF8300. Plus, there are additional comparative samples using the Canon ink set from the Canon Pro-1 printer model.  You can find the whole test suite of samples placed in testing late last year at this link: http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/portfolio/inks-and-media-testing-2017/  Not shown in the 2017 inks and media table is a "stealth" sample I recently added into the design matrix which uses the same Moab Entrada Rag Natural fine art matte media except printed with the HP Vivera/Chromata red ink set after we recently acquired an HPZ3200PS printer in late December, 2017. Hence, the study has a direct-comparison component to it that will help to reveal relative differences in performance between the three most current OEM aqueous pigmented ink sets.

This research project  is coming up on the 40 megalux hour mark in testing, but for a number of reasons, I don't expect to publish any results until we collect at least 50 megalux hours of total exposure dose on this batch of samples. It will take a few more months to reach that goal. The study is less than 20% funded at this time, but at least all the samples are in test. Light fade tests on modern media can take quite a while :(  It's just the nature of the work. The manufacturers can start those tests much sooner by performing tests in house or by contracting the studies early with fee-for-service testing labs.  The community-sponsored testing model that Aardenburg Imaging uses to help fund our tests takes longer to get the project started because we have to wait for new printers, inks, media, and the funding necessary to independently purchase all materials and supplies on the open market. That said, I hope what our approach lacks in speed is made up for by thoroughness and independent integrity of our published research.

I would also caution that it would be good to sample more media with all of the latest OEM ink sets in order to give a better statistical evaluation of the comparative strengths and weakness of the latest inks on a variety of modern media. Both inks and Media play a critical role in print longevity.  Perhaps for the upcoming 2018 calendar year, we may be able to start another new round of testing.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 04:52:22 PM by MHMG »
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deanwork

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2017, 03:11:37 PM »

Not mysterious for HP. They released thorough fade tests in house and through Wilhelm before the inks were on the market and being used. That's why I bought their first Z in the first year it was offered. This is also true of previous Epson and Canon inksets. Then many people of us later saw confirmation, or lack of confirmation with various media , through Mark's more precise and better documented work. But now Canon and Epson are both doing a sloppy job of releasing real data about both of their new inks long after thousands and thousands of important prints are being made with these inks all over the world. I understand they are competing intensely in the color gamut arena too which may even be more of a concern for a significant block of their customers, but that is not a good reason to not reveal important info about inks that have been on the market well over a year. You know they test all these products in house early on as part of their chemical development. I just hope that Canon hasn't screwed up a really great inkset that they already had! If people don't say anything they will permanently adopt this new strategy of selling the printers way before they release their true stability characteristics. There has been way too much of that in the third party ink market over the years. The oems have the resources to to it right.



quote author=Mark D Segal link=topic=118494.msg983431#msg983431 date=1497790115]
Well, let me put it this way: one gets less shocked the more one is familiar with the "culture" of the industry, and it's not only Canon. They shoot themselves in the feet by not being more transparent, because then people would have a natural tendency to suspect the situation is worse than it may be in reality. This is so obvious to me, it perplexes me as to why it isn't at least as obvious to them. But this is how it is, and perhaps I shouldn't be perplexed - I recall back some 45 years ago when I was an advisor to a development ministry in a developing country I opened "Secret Files" that contained nothing but newspaper articles, while I found really confidential papers of the institution I was advising being used in the local food market for wrapping fish and chips. Go figure!  :)
[/quote]
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kevinmcdnyc

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Re: Canon vs Epson Widejet printers
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2017, 05:12:22 PM »

If people don't say anything they will permanently adopt this new strategy of selling the printers way before they release their true stability characteristics. There has been way too much of that in the third party ink market over the years. The oems have the resources to to it right.


I agree totally with this.  These ink numbers should be known before they market and sell the printers.  It is a bad precedent to market and then review these printers without stability "longevity" numbers.  After all, we are printing with pigment inks because of these supposed longevity numbers.
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