Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: 4x5 or 8x10 vs GFX50S vs 645Z vs XP100 vs Mamiya 7 HELP!! Going crazy!  (Read 5874 times)

TomChik

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22

I know its crazy. I've shot 8x10 and XP100 Phase One, a lot. I own an 8x10 and I want to buy a digital to be able to travel without carrying all that stuff with me, to avoid x-ray scanning, to avoid all risks of travelling with film.

I've tried the GFX50S and X1D, I am not sure, can someone help me on telling me where they differs from a 645Z as image quality? Is it the very same sensor? I had a better feeling with Fuji, "faster" than Hassy.

Will they represent a real substitute of film? Will a human eye tell the difference on a 16x20' print and lower size, between the film and digital?

If we pick a 100 of us, with 2 print, left print 16x20 from GFX50S and right print from 4x5, will a lot of us get what is what exactly?

Its very hard for me to jump to digital, not sure why, changes fast, years ago people were amazed by P21, now we almost have in our phone, and still I can recall pros telling me that P21 file were so much more detailed than a 4x5 drum scan, now we will laugh about such a sentence.

Now some says that a drum scan of a 35mm film will need a Phase One 150MP (coming up soon with an X1D/like camera?).

So where is the truth?

What should I buy in order not to spend 2000$ on each shoot with film and still have a comparable image quality to a human eye?

I know it goes personal, for instance in my case I found a drum scan of a medium format film negative to be more pleasing than a XP100MP file.

But anything digital that is comparable to a 645 film or 67 film and that won't cost 50k and maybe around 20k?

Is a IQ180 a good solution?

thank you for your help!
Logged

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3644
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com

Its very hard for me to jump to digital, not sure why, changes fast, years ago people were amazed by P21, now we almost have in our phone.

Well here's your first issue. This statement is only remotely true if you focus on pixel count only. The iPhone (or other phones) don't even come in the same ballpark of a P21 as a serious photographic tool, neither in pure technical quality nor in flexibility. Don't get me wrong, the iPhone (especially recent models) have surprisingly good cameras and it's a great blessing (and also in some ways a curse) that we have such a reasonable camera that is so small, light, and always with us.

But a replacement for a P21 it is not, nor a replacement for a Mamiya 7.
Logged
DOUG PETERSON ([email protected]), Digital Transitions (Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto)
Office: 877.367.8537 | Cell: 740.707.2183 | Phase One IQ3 100mp - 9 Surprises

TomChik

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22

Hi Doug,
thanks for your reply.

I've mentioned P21 and phone as being landmarks in different ages and in the past.

My problem is more about finding myself believing in some colleagues statements where film is "snobbish" cause with a Mark IV you can have the picture anyway, and finding myself believing that Mark IV is not astonishing in detail, compared to any medium format film, for instance. Not to mention higher digital backs.

I know its confusing, cause I am, confused. I know it comes to what kind of photography I do, but still, being just purely and merely technical, what will be a good product to obtain a quality as a, to say, Mamiya 7 portra 160 neg drum scan, in digital? Mainly, that can be, simplified, my question.

Is there anything digital, under 20k, that can make me wonder hours when facing a print done by "that" digital camera, or my Mamiya 7?

thank you
Logged

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3644
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com

There is no one answer to your questions. A lot (nearly all) of it is up to personal taste.

But here's some thoughts in no particular order:
- Try to figure out what you care about. You say you find "a drum scan of a medium format film negative to be more pleasing than a XP100MP file" - this could mean a dozen things. It could mean you like the color palette of a particular film emulsion more than the default color rendering of an IQ3 100mp in Capture One. If that were the case something like the DT Capture One Style Pack could help even the ground by opening you to a variety of initial looks. It could mean you prefer the look of film grain to the clean signal from an IQ3 100mp. In that case the Film Grain tool of Capture One might be a good place to look; it is the closest to actual film grain I've ever seen because they actual do a physics model of the individual grains of film reacting to the "light". Once you figure out, more specifically, what you find pleasing about a particular camera, or lens, or piece of film you're better able to figure out what other gear used with what workflows you will also find pleasing.
- "How much resolution is in film?" is one of the hardest questions you'll find to answer in a way that is both technically accurate and practically useful, and well researched and carefully considered answers can vary considerably (though "150mp for 35mm" is definitely in the laughable range). It's also one I've had a great deal of experience answering due to being the designer and product manager of the DT Film Scanner. An 8x10 in absolutely perfect conditions (fine-grain emulsion, film held flat in the holder, lens in perfect condition at ideal aperture, focus perfect, scanned to absolute perfection, cable release actuated gently, zero movement during exposure even with the big fat bellows acting like a wind sail) can hold a shocking amount of information; definitely more than a 100mp back (says a guy who sells 100mp backs for a living). That said, the number of 8x10 frames (historic or modern) that I've seen that meet these criteria are vanishingly small, and in practice even anal retentive shooters are likely to get much more subject detail using a 100mp camera than an 8x10 even in the studio, let alone in the field.
- Don't hyperfocus on resolution. It's an important technical consideration for some kinds of images (e.g. landscape, architecture, art reproduction) but it's only one of many technical considerations. Don't get me wrong, when I see a beautifully captured image from the IQ3 100mp that is super sharp it really leaves your jaw on the floor. But a beautifully crafted 5mp image will beat a shoddily 400mp image. And a 16mp camera you have with you takes a far better image than an 8x10 camera you leave at home. From my point of view there are five categories of considerations for a prospective camera buyer/user: technical (resolution, lens sharpness, dynamic range, vibration etc), aesthetic (color, ), practical (size, weight, ease of use), initial cost (self explanatory), ownership (cost to operate, support, service, warranty, frequency of updates, ability to upgrade).
- There's no substitute for working with a specialized medium format dealer and playing with actual cameras for extended time and getting their practical aid. For example if you showed me an 8x10 drum scan and an IQ3 100mp and started describing what it is you like about the 8x10 I can show you whether or not those things are possible with the IQ3 100mp. If you tell me what you enjoyed was the process of loading the sheet of film, and watching the image come up in the dark room tray then I'm going to tell you that you're better off staying with 8x10. If you tell me you enjoyed holding a wooden camera where every adjustment is mechanical and the shutter makes a nice wurring sound I'm going to tell you to try a tech camera. If you tell me it's the look of the film grain or the color palette I'm going to show you to what extent those can and cannot be recreated as the default look for the Phase.

But the shortest answer to your question, in my (highly biased) opinion is:
- If you're okay with a tripod and your subjects don't move much then an IQ3 100mp on a tech camera with Rodenstock lenses
- If you want something portable an Phase One IQ3 100mp on an XF
- If the above is out of your budget replace the 100mp above with an refurbished Phase One IQ180.
Logged
DOUG PETERSON ([email protected]), Digital Transitions (Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto)
Office: 877.367.8537 | Cell: 740.707.2183 | Phase One IQ3 100mp - 9 Surprises

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3644
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com

Is there anything digital, under 20k, that can make me wonder hours when facing a print done by "that" digital camera, or my Mamiya 7?

Well this question is a lot more succinct and easier to answer.

Go to a dealer and ask to see prints, or receive files for you to make your own prints, from medium format cameras within your budget (and maybe from one above your budget and one from below your budget for good measure). Then stare at it and see if you wonder for hours!

If so, then borrow that camera and shoot it alongside your film, and see if it's still true when it's in your hands and not someone else's.

If so, buy it. If not, don't.

Any competent dealer will be more than glad to help with that.
Logged
DOUG PETERSON ([email protected]), Digital Transitions (Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto)
Office: 877.367.8537 | Cell: 740.707.2183 | Phase One IQ3 100mp - 9 Surprises

TomChik

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22

Thanks Doug, one fast question, why aren't you mentioning GFX50S or X1D as a possible sub?
thanks
Logged

Joe Towner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 723

Hey Tom,

You're all over the map, and I'm going to say you're going to get answers all over the map.  Honestly, if you're working with a final print size of less than 40" on the long edge, the 50mp selection of cameras currently available will provide you with a portable, affordable solution.

As to the 645z/X1D/GFX discussion, it boils down to a few tidbits:

- X1D gets you leaf lenses, and Hasselblad glass and colors out of the box
- 645z gets you a wide selection of existing lenses
- GFX gives you a few fun things thanks to the focal plane shutter.  You can go for a Cambo Actus Mini styled setup using a lot of the same movements you have known.

The Cambo can be setup with either the GFX, A7RII or a PhaseOne back (though it'd need a shutter if using anything other than the 100mp back).
Logged
t: @PNWMF

Christopher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1258
    • http://www.hauser-photoart.com
4x5 or 8x10 vs GFX50S vs 645Z vs XP100 vs Mamiya 7 HELP!! Going crazy!
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2017, 02:04:26 PM »

Because he is a Phase One Dealer. That doesn't make his posts any less valid.

If you are looking for the best quality out there it's a Phase or Hassi 100MP system.

The GFX and X1D are great as well. However, certainly not even close when it comes to maximum quality.

They have other benefits, like being lighter, water resistent and for example with the GFX the 120mm has IS, which is amazing for Medium Format.

(For reference I own a IQ3100/IQ180 and a GFX)


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

Quentin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1222
    • Quentin on Facebook

"If we pick a 100 of us, with 2 print, left print 16x20 from GFX50S and right print from 4x5, will a lot of us get what is what exactly?"

Answer:  nobody will - as the late Michael Reichmann himself proved to anyone who visited his Toronto gallery and tried a similar comparison between prints from a Phase one P45 back and same size prints from a Canon G10 compact.

We worry about the wrong things.  Resolution is one of them.  We have plenty, and either of your choices will be more than capable of far larger prints and will still look great - as good as your 4x5 large format.
Logged
Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, Arbitrator, Photographer and senior partner of Bargate Murray, the award winning Luxury Asset Law Firm

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3644
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com

Because he is a Phase One Dealer. That doesn't make his posts any less valid.

This is entirely fair. I have many reasons why an IQ3 100mp on a tech camera or IQ1 80mp on an XF are better options than the GFX or X1D but I'll be the first to point out that I am biased and that you should seek good sources of information/evaluation on those as well!

There are many good options out there today. Some are just "gooder" than others :).
Logged
DOUG PETERSON ([email protected]ansitions.com), Digital Transitions (Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto)
Office: 877.367.8537 | Cell: 740.707.2183 | Phase One IQ3 100mp - 9 Surprises

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3644
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com

"If we pick a 100 of us, with 2 print, left print 16x20 from GFX50S and right print from 4x5, will a lot of us get what is what exactly?"

Answer:  nobody will - as the late Michael Reichmann himself proved to anyone who visited his Toronto gallery and tried a similar comparison between prints from a Phase one P45 back and same size prints from a Canon G10 compact.

We worry about the wrong things.  Resolution is one of them.  We have plenty, and either of your choices will be more than capable of far larger prints and will still look great - as good as your 4x5 large format.

In Reichman's test he tried, loosely, to match the color coming from both, and did not use Capture One for processing the Phase One raw files. That eliminates one of the attributes that is different between any two camera systems or films, even in postage stamp sized prints: color. It was also a scene that didn't challenge dynamic range and was only a 13x19" print (relevant for the OP since he is asking about 16x20, but a pretty small print nowadays for fine art landscape).

Notably, Reichman continued to own and purchase additional Phase One cameras after that test :).
Logged
DOUG PETERSON ([email protected]), Digital Transitions (Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto)
Office: 877.367.8537 | Cell: 740.707.2183 | Phase One IQ3 100mp - 9 Surprises

TomChik

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22

Thanks for your precious replies.
Its all very interesting.
I see, and Doug please prove me wrong, that Phase will go on X1D and GFX camera style in a very near future.
Next year most likely 150MP will be equipped on new Phase, and X1D and Fuji might go app to 100MP, maybe with a very low price.

Will it still be worth it to go for a 180 today, as of June 2017?

Or, as Quentin correctly hopefully said, :), a 50MP today will be as good as, for a final print 16x20?

Still its not really clear to me what is so new with Fuji GFX (ok, mirrorless), on sensor level, compared to a 2014 same sensor Pentax 645Z?

Will file be identical? Same sensor?
thank you

Logged

Joe Towner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 723

Phase One already has a mirrorless setup, but it's attaching their current back to an Alpa + Rodenstock lens in a pre-tuned kit.

There will be updates to the 33x44 chip in the not too distant future, but it may take a bit to get into the mirrorless lineup.  Yes, Sony has a timeline that shows even higher MP in the larger CMOS chips, but it's a waiting for the next product cycle you get into.

The Pentax 645z is taking the CMOS chip and fitting it into their current system.  The GFX & X1D is taking that 51mp chip and building a camera around it.  Smaller lenses, and fun features, but a trade off in lack of a mirrorbox.

Files have their own color & info in them, but really, you're getting the same 14-bit info.  Color rendition and editing is a subjective discussion, you'd really want to spend the time personally rather than rely on others.
Logged
t: @PNWMF

Christopher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1258
    • http://www.hauser-photoart.com

Yes same sensor. The difference is size and weight!!!

From my humble opinion I would not by a IQ180 new at the moment. (If you get a great price used, around 10-12k, that's a different story) 

Don't get me wrong I still use my IQ180, but prefer working with the IQ3100 or the GFX.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

Quentin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1222
    • Quentin on Facebook

In Reichman's test he tried, loosely, to match the color coming from both, and did not use Capture One for processing the Phase One raw files. That eliminates one of the attributes that is different between any two camera systems or films, even in postage stamp sized prints: color. It was also a scene that didn't challenge dynamic range and was only a 13x19" print (relevant for the OP since he is asking about 16x20, but a pretty small print nowadays for fine art landscape).

Notably, Reichman continued to own and purchase additional Phase One cameras after that test :).

I reviewed about 20 prints at Michael's studio.  Not a single person who had done so before me could reliably tell what camera had taken what print. 

Doug, with all due respect, you have a vested interest in advancing the virtues of the current top Phase one offering, but that was not Tom's question.   I'd unhesitatingly recommend trying a Fuji GFX and hope Tom tries one out alongside the very different Hasselblad X1D in comparison with his 4x5 camera of choice. 
Logged
Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, Arbitrator, Photographer and senior partner of Bargate Murray, the award winning Luxury Asset Law Firm

NancyP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2205

Basic question for Tom: do you use movements? Will you miss that capability? Do you use flash and expect to be able to use a leaf shutter? Tripod-only use, or do you now want to break away from the tripod sometimes? (I assume that if you use 8 x 10, you aren't a speed graflex guy). What do you like to photograph, and how do you like to work? Are you looking to break away from old habits?
Logged

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3644
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com

Doug, with all due respect, you have a vested interest in advancing the virtues of the current top Phase one offering, but that was not Tom's question.   I'd unhesitatingly recommend trying a Fuji GFX and hope Tom tries one out alongside the very different Hasselblad X1D in comparison with his 4x5 camera of choice.

No offense taken; I directly acknowledge my biases, include them in my signature and try to remember to explicitly state them where relevant.

I unhesitatingly hope he tries an X1D (and/or Fuji GFX). I would only add that I hope he tries out a Phase on a tech cam and/or XF as well :). They are quite different animals in many regards. In a very real way one of the only things they share in common is the sensor is larger than 35mm.
Logged
DOUG PETERSON ([email protected]), Digital Transitions (Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto)
Office: 877.367.8537 | Cell: 740.707.2183 | Phase One IQ3 100mp - 9 Surprises

TomChik

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22

Nancy, Christopher, Joe, Quentin, thanks so much all of you for your kind replies and questions.

Nancy, this is a good question, I love handheld, and I tend to use an 8x10 very fast, not handheld clearly. This is why I love the idea of a Fuji or H1D, cause digital back can be a pain (sorry Doug, I love xp100, but mirror got stucked once, although its great assitance that Phase give to pros on 5 years span, unique).

So, yes, I love handheld, and portraits, almost reportage.

I have to say I just ran a test print with a drum scan from a 120 roll I had shot with a Mamiya 7II lens, 80mm., versus a Nikon D810 and a Canon 5D Mark IV. I was impressed by the details of the Canon. And probably the great Reichman test had a great meaning. I see too many details on Mark IV (30MB), so many I had to use grain on C1 (thanks Doug, that works well though) to match drum scan (1.19GB drum scan) of Mamiya "imperfection", and still details were too high. Nikon D810 was shot on a 4x5 crop mode, and was lacking of details compared to Canon, not to Mamiya.

So, as you see, maybe even a Fuji can be way too much as details. Its all very (amazingly) confusing. And forum like this one are a huge help to get through the woods.

At this very moment I am still thinking about IQ180 with XF, or Mark IV, or Fuji (Hasselblad I love the design, felt a bit slow handheld). Or just keep my 10x8 and get a RX1RII for fast shootings. Hard choices. And suggestions are so welcome.

Ideally, I want to be abel to shoot a reportage picture, with an 8x10 attitude, so thinking where to be with the camera, rather than frame moving the subject, so with a kind of "calmness" and details to bring home just in case I want to run a very large print up to 5x7 feet.

Am I asking too much I guess?
Logged

Paul2660

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3654
    • Photos of Arkansas

The term "hand held", to me is very limited with any Phase One XF and back solution.  I had much more luck with the P45+ and IQ160, but with the 80MP and 100MP backs, you have to have a "very very steady" hand.  At least I do.  I used to try hand held pano's with the IQ100 and 55LS or 35LS but kept finding at least 1 of the series would be slight off due to vibration from the mirror ( or me).  Hand holding any moderate to long telephoto for me is a not go period, just to much vibration and thus blur.  I am sure others can do this just not me.  The IS on the 120mm Fuji is excellent. 

Recently on a trip to Yosemite, I had both the IQ3100 and GFX.  I would prefer to use the Phase all the time, but for me that means carrying a tripod for all setups.  The GFX freed me tremendously and on the days I hiked in the park, I just carried the GFX and 4 lenses.  The difference in weight is considerable (much less for the GFX over the P1 and 3 lenses) but the ability to hand hold a pano series or just hand hold with the 120mm or 200mm Mamiya F 2.8 APO was a huge benefit for me.  DR of the 50 and 100MP chips to me is very very close. 

The GFX solution was also less weight than my Nikon D810 and the same lenses (selected focal range)

I am sure the X1D will give the same results, ( have not tried it).

Paul Caldwell
Logged
Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
Photography > http://photosofarkansas.com
Blog> http://paulcaldwellphotography.com

TomChik

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22

Thanks Paul, I've tried Fuji 120, wonderful lens.

Fuji is probably the way to go and your hiking experience over carry on weight explains that perfectly. My question is, can you take a file from this camera, make a print that will give you the very same feeling of a 4x5 or 8x10 negative?

It would be interesting to see a new 8x10 vs 180 but with new 50mp sensor (or 4x5 vs 51mp) done nowadays.

Probably you can bring home a great result with 51MP, comparable to 4x5.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up