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Author Topic: Red River Palo Duro Etching matte paper on Epson 3880 - first look  (Read 2927 times)

Josh-H

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Re: Red River Palo Duro Etching matte paper on Epson 3880 - first look
« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2017, 08:49:52 PM »

"Why ? Few observers will be wearing polarized sunglasses !

It's pretty simply - for creating profiles for reproduction for human observers, the best measurements are those that closely mimic what a human observer sees. So unless you are assuming all your viewers are wearing polarized glasses, it's hard to understand your enthusiasm for polarized measurements!"


I am not getting into a debate over this - I'm simply going to state that this is nonsense.

The use of a polariser when making profiles with matt paper significantly improves the shadow reads - it does so because the polariser removes light scatter. It has absolutely nothing to do with looking at images with polarised glasses and such a notion is laughable. If I show you two prints, one made with a polarised profile and one without you wouldn't know the difference other than the fact the polarised profile had much better shadow detail!

MHMG

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Re: Red River Palo Duro Etching matte paper on Epson 3880 - first look
« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2017, 09:24:10 PM »


If I show you two prints, one made with a polarised profile and one without you wouldn't know the difference other than the fact the polarised profile had much better shadow detail!

Unless both image files used to make the two prints are carefully edited to bring out the desired amount of shadow detail using either type of profile. In which case, results will be entirely comparable. Been there, done that. The problem with the polarized data set is that it screws up the profile soft proofing accuracy significantly more than a non polarized set of data, so iterative printing is more likely to be required for other aspects of the image that have little to do with shadow retention when using a polarized data set to build the profile. I genuinely believe it's best to think of polarized data sets as special subsets of the general ICC profiling process, useful with some images for sure, just like choosing a particular rendering flavor, but not a universal win for all images in all situations.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 09:27:35 PM by MHMG »
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GWGill

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Re: Red River Palo Duro Etching matte paper on Epson 3880 - first look
« Reply #62 on: July 14, 2017, 10:25:35 PM »

The use of a polariser when making profiles with matt paper significantly improves the shadow reads - it does so because the polariser removes light scatter. It has absolutely nothing to do with looking at images with polarised glasses and such a notion is laughable. If I show you two prints, one made with a polarised profile and one without you wouldn't know the difference other than the fact the polarised profile had much better shadow detail!
Getting measurements that don't correspond to the visual characteristics is not profiling, and will just lead you astray in the long run.

It's possible you might get "better shadow detail" due to poor workflow :- i.e. if you are not properly linking the source and destination profiles using gamut mapping, but instead using a colorimetric (or poorly implemented perceptual) type intent, then yes the mismatch between the source black point (typically 0 for idealized source spaces like sRGB , AdobeRGB etc.) with the actual print black point will cause loss of shadows. So fudging the measurements to give the print an artificially good black point using polarized measurements will improve the situation, without actually tackling the underlying problem. The alternative is to not fool yourself - take measurements that actually correspond to the visual color, and use a good workflow that maps the luminances ranges of source and destination appropriately.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 10:33:05 PM by GWGill »
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