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Author Topic: How do Hasselblad V lenses preform with 60 or 80 megapixel backs ?  (Read 6106 times)

nautidtarfur

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For a decade I have been using a Phase One P 25+ on my 555 ELD Hasselblad with satisfying results.
I would like bigger files and I wonder how the resolution of my CF Hassy lenses copes on a 60 or 80 MP back.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 12:11:35 pm by nautidtarfur »
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jng

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Re: How do Hasselblad V lenses preform with 60 or 80 megapixel backs ?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2017, 12:16:46 pm »

I use an IQ160 60 Mp back on my V system bodies. In my experience the following more than hold their own at 60 Mp:

40/4 IF (note: this is the last and also most expensive version  of the 40, the others are softer in the corners from what I understand)
100/3.5
180/4
250 Superachromat (spectacular - recently I tested it back-to-back with the Phase One 240 on a 100 Mp back and let's just say I was happy to own the Zeiss)

I find that the biggest challenge is finding proper focus. At 60+ megapixels, there's not much if any room for error and live view is not very user friendly on the CCD backs.

- John
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Ken

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Re: How do Hasselblad V lenses preform with 60 or 80 megapixel backs ?
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2017, 01:12:44 pm »

250 Superachromat (spectacular - ....

I also use the IQ160 on my 503CW and ArcBody and agree with John about the 250 SA (I have the CFi edition). I don't have the other lenses that he has, but I have the 120 Makro-Planar CFE, 150 Sonnar CF and 350 SA CFE with 1.4XE APO teleconverter. All of them perform beautifully including the "ordinary" 150. The three Rodenstocks in the ArcBody kit are incredible as well. 
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rent

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Re: How do Hasselblad V lenses preform with 60 or 80 megapixel backs ?
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2017, 05:48:35 pm »

I can attest to the CFE IF 4/40 producing excellent results with my 503CW + CFV-50C.

Alex

BobShaw

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Re: How do Hasselblad V lenses preform with 60 or 80 megapixel backs ?
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2017, 06:58:18 pm »

If you do the sums then that same camera was providing a resolution of about 60MP when it was shooting film. Should be no big deal unless the sensor is much smaller.
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jng

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Re: How do Hasselblad V lenses preform with 60 or 80 megapixel backs ?
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2017, 07:29:57 pm »

Addendum: agree that the 120 Makro-Planar and 150 are indeed also quite nice (the former for close ups). However the 120 suffers slightly from fringing, perhaps more so than more modern designs. The 150 is perhaps just a wee bit less sharp than the 180 (which rivals my 250 SA) but is a great value, with excellent copies of the CF variant available for < US $500. I have kept both of these lenses in my kit.


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Hank Keeton

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Re: How do Hasselblad V lenses preform with 60 or 80 megapixel backs ?
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2017, 09:23:04 pm »

I've used my Credo-60 with pretty much most of the CF, and some of the CFi glass...all with stunning results up to 30x40 print sizes. Some even larger.

Critical focus is always an issue, regardless of glass...that's the nature of many-small(ish) pixels, and angle-of-incidence
 
Also,using camera-movements with these lenses ...first  with my Flexbody.....and now with my Silvestri Flexicam.....provides a palpable improvement in critical focus, with great DOF as an added bonus.

Sure, sensors smaller than 60mmx60mm film, are somewhat more demanding of technique for MF...but film-flatness is no longer an issue...and extreme temps don't impact me as much as in the film days.

Experiment...!!....enjoy....!!!....be creative....!!!

Hank

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Chris Livsey

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Re: How do Hasselblad V lenses preform with 60 or 80 megapixel backs ?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2017, 07:23:47 am »

For a decade I have been using a Phase One P 25+ on my 555 ELD Hasselblad with satisfying results.
I would like bigger files and I wonder how the resolution of my CF Hassy lenses copes on a 60 or 80 MP back.

I have a P20 back on my V system and a P45+ on H1 with which I shoot the same C/Cf/Cfe/Cfi lenses I have on the CF adapter. The same lenses perform to the same quality ranking on the 39MP back as on the 16MP back. Even the 50mmC (none T*) on the higher resolution back "improves" you are sensor limited rather than lens limited, now 80MP is beyond my reach and some point must be reached where the lenses being to perform as well as they can and run out of steam.

There was a three page discussion of the same question here:
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=53349.0
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Doug Peterson

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Re: How do Hasselblad V lenses preform with 60 or 80 megapixel backs ?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2017, 09:17:29 am »

The most satisfying answer sounds very definitive: the wider lenses generally do not, the longer lenses generally do-ish.

But I'm going to give you a far less satisfying but far more useful answer: it depends.

Like most "how do X lenses perform" questions it depends on:
- how you're using them
- how you're judging
- what your comparing it against
- which samples you test

How you're using them:
Aperture is the most obvious example here. A lot of lenses that are very mediocre wide open perform brilliantly when shooting at f/11. If you're a landscape shooter who always shoots at f/11 then that is the use-case that matters to you and performance wide open is really not important. In contrast if you're a portrait shooter that prefers the wide open look then performance at f/11 is irrelevant and performance wide-open is all that matters. But other things matter as well. While not strictly "lens performance" if you prefer to or must hand hold but the results hand-held are not sharp enough for your needs then the "lens performance" is moot. If you can't focus the system accurately then the lens performance is moot. etc etc The real world is different and more complex than a single isolated component tested in a lab.

How you're judging:
Screen? Print? At what size? With an 80mp back your native print size at 240ppi is 43" by 32". If you print, for example, 16x20" you may find that issues that are obvious "on screen" (viewed at 100%) are completely meaningless in the print. If you're printing at 60x80" and walking up to the print you'll notice every little thing. Channeling a philosophy professor: if a slight softness exists but you never see it, is it truly there?

Also what criteria matter to you? The landscape shooter is going to notice and care about sharpness in the corners while the portrait shooter may find that it doesn't matter, or in fact that they prefer a slightly soft corner! How much does chromatic aberration (CA) matter to you? I've worked with shooters that don't seem bothered even by massive CA and shooters that can't tolerate even a whiff of it.

What you're comparing against
We run into this every day at the office. Two customers walk in the door and try a specific lens (e.g. the Hassy 40). One is coming from Canon and the other is coming from Tech Cameras with Rodenstock HR lenses. The results of the test are the same, and one is hugely impressed and the other is disappointed.

In other words, everything is relative. The Mamiya 45D was a perfectly fine lens, and when you were comparing it to the Mamiya 35 it held up quite well and many were pleased with it. When you compare it against the new Schneider 45LS Blue Ring or a Rodenstock 40HR the flaws of the Mamiya 45D become hugely magnified by the comparison.

Which Samples You Test
Top quality control specs, even for Zeiss, were nowhere near what they are today in a modern line like the Schneider LS Blue Ring. Variation from one copy of a specific film-era Hassy lens model to another could be significant the day they were made, and only vary more thereafter with use/wear/tear.

Bottom Line
The bottom line is you should go TRY the back with your system. Fortunately this isn't hard. Most Phase One dealers would be glad to arrange testing for you by any number of means (in their studio, in yours, in person, via shipment, rental toward purchase, whatever... I can't speak for other dealers specific policies other than, broadly, they will be eager to help). That is certainly the case for DT; we have Phase One Demo Facilities in NYC and LA and ship anywhere in the country. Put the back on YOUR body, put YOUR lenses on it, and go shoot what YOU shoot, and judge how YOU shoot. If you like the results, buy it, and if not, don't.

There is simply no substitute for your own testing.

jamgolf

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Re: How do Hasselblad V lenses preform with 60 or 80 megapixel backs ?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2017, 12:29:56 am »

Superachromats match very well with higher resolution digital backs.
180/4 is also good but not as good as the superachromats.
Live view and a buttery smooth focus ring will help achieve the best results.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 10:24:53 pm by jamgolf »
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DiamondsDr

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Re: How do Hasselblad V lenses preform with 60 or 80 megapixel backs ?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2017, 09:53:48 pm »

Hi, i've used for macro hasselblad cf 120mm f4 makro-planar via cf adapter and it performs great on h4d-60.

jng

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Re: How do Hasselblad V lenses preform with 60 or 80 megapixel backs ?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2017, 10:47:03 pm »

Hi, i've used for macro hasselblad cf 120mm f4 makro-planar via cf adapter and it performs great on h4d-60.

Beautiful work on your website. Were these shot with the 120 CF Makro-Planar on the H4D60?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: How do Hasselblad V lenses preform with 60 or 80 megapixel backs ?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2017, 11:33:13 am »

Hi,

Jim Kasson has tested the SA 250/5.6 on the Fuji GFX, it was nice but far behind the Fuji 120 macro lens. I don't have any superachromats but the MTF  data from Hasselblad does indicate that the 180/4 actually performs better in white light compared to the SA 250/4.

Also the 180/4 is multicoated while the SA 250/4 is single coated, AFAIK.

So based on available data from Hasselblad I would prefer the 180/4 to the 250/5.6 SA for general photography. But, he 180/4 does show some bokeh color fringing. My take is that the SA 250/5.6 may be better corrected for a special set of conditions, while the 180/4 may be better corrected for general photography.

It is hard to find out. You need to shoot a couple hundreds of images under variable conditions to find out. Or we could go with the MTF data that Hasselblad shares. Based on that data I would go with the 180/4.

Best regards
Erik




Superachromats match very well with higher resolution digital backs.
180/4 is also good but not as good as the superachromats.
Live view and a buttery smooth focus ring will help achieve the best results.
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jng

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Re: How do Hasselblad V lenses preform with 60 or 80 megapixel backs ?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2017, 11:58:17 am »

Erik,

Interesting points. I own both. My take home message is that the 180 is remarkably close to the 250 SA in terms of sharpness. The 180 shows a very slight amount of fringing on out of focus features whereas the SA shows none. The main difference in my view is their different focal lengths, which is what drives my decision about which lens to use for any given composition. Both lenses are superb.

John


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DiamondsDr

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Re: How do Hasselblad V lenses preform with 60 or 80 megapixel backs ?
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2017, 09:02:14 pm »

Beautiful work on your website. Were these shot with the 120 CF Makro-Planar on the H4D60?
Hi John, thank you! There are some, and from h3d2-31(sold) as well but currently using hc 120 macro for the speed and keeping 120cf as backup and for use on 503cw, majority of the images from the range of different cameras, personally the most part i like about MF images is tonal transition... i have also 50mm fle but have never used it on h4d60...Thanks!
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