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Author Topic: How does the Otus compare with Medium Format players?  (Read 4603 times)

Rdmax

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How does the Otus compare with Medium Format players?
« on: May 30, 2017, 01:27:01 pm »

Looking at either a Canon 5DS or an old Hasselblad back...

The topic for this one is a little old and kind of went off topic anyway. Hope this new one is of help.
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Joe Towner

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Re: How does the Otus compare with Medium Format players?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2017, 03:46:50 pm »

Completely different tools.  Which old Hasselblad gear?  How good are you at manual focusing, especially if shooting wide open?  Will you be shooting with a tripod or hand held?  What will you be shooting?
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Rdmax

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Re: How does the Otus compare with Medium Format players?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2017, 05:49:50 pm »

Completely different tools.  Which old Hasselblad gear?  How good are you at manual focusing, especially if shooting wide open?  Will you be shooting with a tripod or hand held?  What will you be shooting?

Either the V or H4-H5.

Tripod, usually in low light conditions.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: How does the Otus compare with Medium Format players?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2017, 07:10:36 pm »

Some quick comments.

- From a pure lens quality standpoint, I would say that the 3 Otus that I own are at least as good as the HC lenses. The gap is IMHO the largest comparing the HC 100mm f2.2 to the 55/85 mm. The 100mm HC is very good stopped down, but not in the same league wide open. The Otus 85mm f1.4 at f1.4 is probably better than the 100mm HC stopped down to f2.8. At f4 the Hasselblad lens becomes real good which makes sense since it is used most often at f5.6/f8 in studio applications.
- One problem with the 100mm HC is that specular highlights in bokeh area display hexagonal shapes that I don't find very pleasing. This is the result of the leaf shutter having only 6 blades that are not curved. Other than that its bokeh is very pleasing,
- The other HC lenses are very good, basically at the same level as the Otus, but of course with a lot less ambitious widest aperture. The 28mm, 50mm II, 300mm f4.5 are all brilliant, and are very sharp and well corrected for CA,
- Overall the image quality of the H6D-100c + HC is significantly superior to that of my D810 + Otus in terms of resolution, pixel quality (sharper on the Hasselblad images) - the combination of these 2 makes the real resolution gap probably closer to 130mp vs 36 - so almost 4 times more real world pixels. Besides, the colors, in particular in the greens, are really nice with the Hasselblad. Both natural and pleasing.
- In terms of the most important metric, dynamic range, both the D810 and the H6D-100c are brilliant. I would give a slight advantage to the Hasselblad since its shadows retain more color information in my book.

Since your interest is for an older Hasselblad back, the gap is likely to be much smaller. I would personally avoid the 5Ds due to its old generation low DR sensor, and go instead with a soon to be announced D820 if the rumors are confirmed. Unless you already own Canon mount Otis lenses of course.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 07:14:42 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: How does the Otus compare with Medium Format players?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2017, 08:10:50 pm »

Hi,

Don't own the Otus but have four years experience with an V system / P45+ combo. The P45+ sees very little use after I switched to A7rII, I see zero benefits with the P45+.

Some points:
  • V-series lenses are film era. The Sonnars are very good, Distagons less so, at least the ones I have experience with, namely Distagon 40/4 CF, Distagon 50/4 CF, Distagon 60/3.5 CF. They can make nice images, of course, but I don't think they will match a high res DSLR with good lenses.
  • Affordable MFD often means cropped format MFD, so the angle of view of the wide angles cannot be utilised fully.
  • V-lenses can be dirt cheap, but H-lenses are quite expensive.
  • CCD backs cannot match modern CMOS in dynamic range.
  • MFD repairs are very expensive.
  • Canon buys you into a living system, Hasselblad V is purely legacy.

What you may consider is looking at the Fuji GFX. It is priced around 6.5k$US and lenses are probably a bit below OTUS prices. Lens choice is limited, but there are six lenses announced and those lenses are optimised for the 44x33 mm sensor. The same would apply to the Hasselblad X1D at a somewhat higher cost.

Hasselblad X1D is limited to Hasselblad lenses as it needs lenses with leaf shutters. The GFX has focal plane shutter and would accept almost any lens with a proper adapter. The leaf shutter in the Hasselblad may be a very important advantage shooting outdoor flash.

Pentax 645Z may also be an interesting alternative.

Here are some comparison images I shot with the Hasselblad V/P45+ combo and the Sony A7rII. Lenses: Hasselblad Distagon 40/4 CF at f/11 and Planar 100/3.5CF at f/11. Sony Canon 16-35/4L at f/8 and Sony 90/2.8G at f/8.

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/P45+_vs_a7rII/index2.html.

Bernard has a good point on DR with the Canon 5DsR, but I would suggest that even the 5DsR is a good match for the older CCD backs regarding DR and Canon is making good progress with latest generation CMOS.

Best regards
Erik




Looking at either a Canon 5DS or an old Hasselblad back...

The topic for this one is a little old and kind of went off topic anyway. Hope this new one is of help.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 09:02:09 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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BradSmith

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Re: How does the Otus compare with Medium Format players?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2017, 02:40:25 pm »

Erik,
regarding your linked images....which camera took each column?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: How does the Otus compare with Medium Format players?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2017, 04:01:57 pm »

Hi,

Sorry for that omission, but it is in the file names. CF means P45+ and DSC means Sony. In most cases the Hasselblad/P45+ images are on the left, but this is not always the case.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,
regarding your linked images....which camera took each column?
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BobShaw

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Re: How does the Otus compare with Medium Format players?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2017, 11:06:44 pm »

Looking at either a Canon 5DS or an old Hasselblad back...
Well to me you need to look at apples to apples. These cameras are different purposes but if you are going to compare a $3000 camera then you should compare it to another $3000 odd camera.
I have the Canon 5Ds and I also have a Hasselblad H3DII-39. Similar cost, one is new and one is about 8 years old. The Hasselblad (less pixels but bigger sensor) has far better image quality for landscapes and studio work, but I wouldn't climb a mountain with it. The H series is current even though my model is now dated.

If you are looking at a V series then I don't regard them as old. They are ancient. Came out around 1957 and not produced since about 2006. So 11 years out of life. There are people who spend $5K to put a back on one of those or a possibly older H1/H2 worth $500, but I don't know why.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 01:10:57 am by BobShaw »
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Chris Livsey

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Re: How does the Otus compare with Medium Format players?
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2017, 02:53:13 am »

There are people who spend $5K to put a back on one of those or a possibly older H1/H2 worth $500, but I don't know why.

Well one reason on the H1 is that it at least shows the histogram on the grip which the H6 has just been "improved" to have following the latest firmware update.
If you are not looking for autofocus, and many on here are not, or exposure calculated by the camera, light-meters have been around a while now and do a much better job of incident readings, you are left with a light tight box to bring together a lens and a sensing device. To spend on those two components, which directly impact on the resulting image, would seem to be a more sensible use of limited resources than the connecting box whose functions can be replicated easily, and cheaply, frequently better. Manufacturers of those light tight boxes would of course have you think otherwise, particularly since they were gifted a sensor device inextricably linked to their box to sell upgrades with. The removable back in MFD was and is a great benefit to photographers, less to manufacturers who tried to close the loop again, Hasselblad (now rescinded) first, now Team Phase One.
That's why.
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BobShaw

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Re: How does the Otus compare with Medium Format players?
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2017, 07:30:37 am »

Well one reason on the H1 is that it at least shows the histogram on the grip which the H6 has just been "improved" to have following the latest firmware update.
All of the H1-5 do also have histograms. Most of the time however you will get more info easier from either the viewfinder or the screen. I don't know why the H6 initially didn't have a histogram but much bigger companies have omitted things and we move on. i don't think that the OP was looking for a $20K camera anyway.

I have had the H1 (and then H2) with an 18MP Phase back. It cost me much more than i eventually paid for my next H3DII-31 then H3DII-39. The Hasselblad was much better move. One battery which lasted longer and full integration makes them a much better unit.

I use manual focus most of the time. I also use manual exposure most of the time. I even have the "Auto Focus is for Sissies" T shirt. However you would be pretty silly in the 21st century to buy a say $5K camera that didn't have auto focus and a meter.

If you want to talk about empty boxes then the Cambo Wide is just that. View cameras also work fine with Hasselblad. However I sold both the Cambo and the Linhof because ultimately a Hasselblad Tilt Shift will work out cheaper and better and be integrated. Integration makes sense and is a huge thing.

Enjoy your Phase and I have a H1 for sale if you want one.
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Joe Towner

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Re: How does the Otus compare with Medium Format players?
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2017, 11:40:45 am »

And we're back to off topic.  I would propose the topic be paused until the OP, RDMAX, returns to participate.

A V series works very different from a H4 or H5 series Hasselblad, and before someone invests in one, I would highly recommend spending time with one in hand.  You might like it, you might not.  It may not even produce a photo you're happy with.  But only you can decide that.
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BAB

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Re: How does the Otus compare with Medium Format players?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2017, 11:37:34 am »

With LV focusing you can make your images SING, you will also find out real fast if you have a great copy of any particular lens.
PS vibriant orangish-red colors are very difficult to render with HC100mm and H6D-100c for some reason the combination of camera, lens and high saturated color blows out easily. But everything elements is great! Using the HC28mm into the sun the lens hood is not (will not) keep out flare you need to shade the front element with something then it performs magical.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: How does the Otus compare with Medium Format players?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2017, 12:36:20 pm »

Hi,

I would suggest that colour, both good and bad is more related to the colour profiles used than to the camera or sensor. Making DCP colour profiles that are used with Adobe's LR or ACR is reasonably easy, so that is always worth testing.

Hasselblad is known to have very good colour profiles built into Phocus.

Best regards
Erik


With LV focusing you can make your images SING, you will also find out real fast if you have a great copy of any particular lens.
PS vibriant orangish-red colors are very difficult to render with HC100mm and H6D-100c for some reason the combination of camera, lens and high saturated color blows out easily. But everything elements is great! Using the HC28mm into the sun the lens hood is not (will not) keep out flare you need to shade the front element with something then it performs magical.
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Rdmax

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Re: How does the Otus compare with Medium Format players?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2017, 12:42:17 pm »

Regarding the previous 2 posts:

How is live view on the H6? I love LV.

I don't really like Phocus software, though... has it gotten better?
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BobShaw

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Re: How does the Otus compare with Medium Format players?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2017, 07:10:53 pm »

Regarding the previous 2 posts:

How is live view on the H6? I love LV.

I don't really like Phocus software, though... has it gotten better?
You seem to have gone from a "5Ds or old Hasselblad back" around maybe $3k to an $US8-50K investment.
What is your objective.
Phocus IMO is free and great, if you have a Hasselblad back.
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